The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What Does Jesus Mean To You?

Theology Christology
#1

I just wanted to say upfront here, bearing my heart a little, and to bring something up for discussion, that though I say in different ways here and there that Jesus Christ is important to me, and more so than the religion built around him, and though I would say that, at the very least, that Jesus is meaningful to me as a symbol of hope, and as some pure glimpse of what we are meant to be like, and also a true picture of what God is like, at least on some level, yet, at the same time, still, when it really comes down to it, I don’t really feel like I have much connection with Jesus personally… granted, some parts of the gospels resonate with me, some parts of Jesus’ story speak to me… whether everything is factual in the gospels I don’t know… people debate about it left and right, but all I can say is some of what he said and did speaks to me, and other things don’t, or even confuse or frustrate me, to be honest…

And if I’m honest, Jesus is really more of an idea to me, or an image in my mind, rather than a Teacher or a Friend whose presence I can sense or feel readily.
When I think of God I tend to think of God as a father, the kind of father I long to have, or maybe a great spirit, keeping me going, and always with me, wherever I may go, helping me, little by little, to learn and grow, to believe, to trust, to live, to love…
But where does Jesus fit in?

I remember when I was baptized years ago at the Baptist church that I only left about a year ago because of the path I’ve taken in the last couple years, when I was baptized one of the things I said was something like this: ‘I know this has something to do with that Jesus guy.’
It was an honest, if ambiguous, statement, but I still stand by it.

There is something about Jesus that I can’t put my finger on exactly, something more than his just being a symbol of hope or a prototype of what human beings can be or some ground level representation of what God is like, something, well…
I don’t know.
All I know is I’d like to be a little closer to this Jesus, or at least to the Source from which this Jesus springs, then I am now, or feel that I am.

It’s funny, I debate back and forth, try to encourage people, throw in my two cents here and there, ramble and rant about God and this and that as if I really had something worth saying, and people tell me how wise I am, or how gifted, or how spiritual, or how close to God I am, but sometimes, deep down, I feel kind of adrift, uncertain, even unanchored.

My faith in God, and in Jesus is, I admit, vague and on close inspection would be ‘wishy-washy’ in the eyes of some.

And I admit that my faith is based less on the Bible than on the undercurrent of longing and aching in my own heart, which I am always searching for an answer to, and hope to find in God and in Jesus, whatever or whoever they are, and my own personal life experience, which points me in the direction of believing and trusting that God and Jesus are the answer for me.

I feel that Jesus (if he really is with me, personally and not just as an idea or image in my head, and even when I can’t feel it), would understand where I’m at in this, for some odd reason.

So here’s my thought to bring up for discussion… what does Jesus mean to you?
And I mean, honestly? Dropping theological gymnastics, and just saying how this Jesus guy, who lived and died and apparently came back to life a long time ago, and whom you’ve never met face to face, in the flesh, makes you feel.
Like Shakespeare once wrote: ‘In these sad times we must obey, speak what we feel, and not what we ought to say.’

Anyways, just thought I’d throw this out there.

Thanks for listening and may you be blessed. :slight_smile:

Matt

#2

Jesus is the self-sacrificing love of God, on which and on Whom we all depend.

I can’t really talk about how that makes me feel, other than very very small and a little shiny. :slight_smile:

#3

Jesus is my elder brother who shows me the way in my relationship to my heavenly Father. I see in him what Father desires from me. One who only speaks and does what he sees his heavenly father do.

#4

Because of the site going down, Cindy’s post and my second post here got knocked out I guess…

Cindy’s post was lovely, it’s a shame it got erased… :neutral_face:

But anyways, I did save my second post elsewhere, so I’ll go ahead and re-post it. Here it is:

Hey guys, again I wanted to thank you for your feedback.
And I just wanted to share something with you.
Over the last few months, through the encouragement of my friend Charles Slagle, I’ve been trying to listen to the inner voice of God’s Spirit, and write down what I hear. ‘Letters from God’, if you will.
All of them have been signed ‘Father’ or ‘Abba’ or ‘Papa’ or the like… all except one, which I would like to share with you.

I had written it down a couple months ago, and had kind of forgotten about it, but I remembered it after writing my post, and re-read it, and found that it spoke to me more then than when I first wrote it down, and that it is a kind of response to what I shared in my post, although before the fact, rather than after, which is interesting, to say the least.
But I thought this might encourage you or speak to you, as it has me.
Anyways, here it is:

Searching One,

I know that you have much difficulty, beloved, seeing how everything fits together, in this world, and in your life.
But I want you to know that figuring everything out is not a burden that you need to carry.
Remember, with me your burden should be light, and not a weight that crushes you, and your yoke should be easy, not impossible to bear.
Yes, in this life there will be trouble, there is no denying that, but you not fight your battles, or walk the road, alone.
I am always with you, and closer than your doubts or fears may tell you, and even if you feel that you don’t really know me, I know you, and love you, so fear not, for you can trust in my knowledge, and you can trust in my love, and even if you can’t lean on your own understanding, you can lean on mine.
I know that you often feel as though you are groping in the dark, trying to believe, trying to connect your heart with mine, trying to lay hold of me, trying to reach out for me in the dark…
But I want you to know that I’m here, and even when you’re afraid that I’m not, and that you can trust me, even when you’re afraid that you can’t.
And trust me when I say that you need not be so hard on yourself, nor do you need to carry the weight of the world on your shoulders.
Trust me with that, and with all your burdens and cares; I am more than strong enough to carry them all, and to carry you.
When you pick up your cross and follow me, you do not carry your cross alone, and remember that there is joy set before you, and new life…
I know that you are weary and heavy laden, that you are tired and uncertain, tired and uncertain in your search for meaning, for hope, for peace, for home, and even in your search for me, when you doubt that I am near…
But know that you are not lost, even if you sometimes feel that you are, and you are never alone, because I am always with you.
Rest now, my son, and remember that I am your peace.

  • always for you, Jesus
#5

After reading your post, Matthew, I realized that I might have this on Lazarus (an add-on for Firefox) and lo and behold, here it is. :slight_smile:

#6

Awesome :smiley:

#7

Does anyone else have any input on this? Feel free to share :slight_smile:

Blessings to you :slight_smile:

Matt

#8

“What does Jesus mean to you?” What a wonderful question and exercise to see if we are in the faith. I have so very much enjoyed the posts that I’ve read here so far.

Once a Bible teacher challenged us to talk for three minutes on who Jesus is. We could say lots of things – he is the Lamb of God, the Morning star, the fairest of ten thousand – but what is he to ME – to YOU? Do our lives bear the testimony of his power to heal a wounded heart and make a person whole and fruitful? What is Jesus to me? He gave me life. He himself is life and in his presence nothing else can possess me. He raised me up from the mire and set my feet on a rock among the princes of His people.

Once, as an atheist who had been smoking and taking hallucinogens while falling in love with the beauty of the mountains, skies, and the simplicity of life in New Mexico, it began to bother me that I fell short of being the consummate hippie. Love, joy, and peace were not found in me, and a friend told me about Jesus who would be with me wherever I was, whose love would surround me and uphold me in every situation. She did not say that accepting him would get me to a heaven I did not believe in, or help me escape a hell I did not believe in, but that he would change my heart. Soon after, one day as I was high on mushrooms and unable to be at peace, I said, “God if you are real, come into my heart and change me.” Then I found myself at some folks’ house where they were singing love songs to God and praying in tongues that sounded like ancient Hebrew prayers. When the meeting broke up I knew that I was a new person, a Christian, of all things, and although I was unaware of any scripture whatsoever, I knew that Jesus was raised from the dead and that He was alive in me! When I got home, I was a different person and I felt like I had been on the most wonderful date with the perfect man and I did not have to wait for the phone to ring. He was always there. I was full of joy unspeakable and full of glory, even through the long years following as my five year ‘relationship’ took on new problems and dissolved in a most painful way ten years later.

He is here still, and in his people in whose presence I find myself often weeping. As we get tried in family matters, in financial and health matters, we find him again and again to be sufficient, and his riches much more important than any of these things. Communion in our marriage is based on our relationship with Christ. We married late in life – from completely different cultures though English is our native language – and again and again our interests and passions related to the things of God are the glue of our marriage, and the joy of our life together.

In Him we are completely free in regard to the food we eat, the days we honor. He gives us the law of love to go by in all our relationships with the people and the things of this earth.

With Jesus, I abide in the vine and I bear fruit naturally as any grape vine or fruit tree would. By abiding in him, I am guaranteed a fruitful life. I have no concern whatever about whether I am measuring up to anyone else’s standard. He says, “Jeannie” - and I know if I am abiding in him or not. I do not worry about obeying him. He does not suddenly give me a rule to follow that is out of synch with life as he has taught it. If it seems that he has because of my ignorance, I can trust him to teach it to me.

This thread struck me because he is the only reason any of these threads exist. Without Jesus, do we have EU? No. Without him we wouldn’t know what it was. I cannot imagine having only the Old Testament from which to learn about God.

As Cindy said, If I were to turn away from him, I would only be turning away from a false view of him because he is truly irresistible.

#9

I wanted to say, Edward, concerning your post: "Searching One,

I know that you have much difficulty, beloved, seeing how everything fits together, in this world, and in your life."

This sounds so much like Him. Thank you for posting it.

#10

You’re welcome, Jeannie, and thank you for sharing your story :slight_smile:

Actually, your conversion experience sounds a lot like Lonnie Frisbee’s.
I watched a documentary about him, called Lonnie Frisbee: The Life and Death of a Hippie Preacher, recently in the Christian universalist group that I’m a part of.
It’s a sad story, to be sure, but powerful and thought-provoking. You may want to give it a look. :slight_smile:

Here’s a link for it on Amazon:
amazon.com/Frisbee-Life-Deat … ie+Frisbee

Anyways, I wish I had a tenth of your passion. Much of the time, as I shared in my OP, I feel pretty disconnected from God and from Jesus, and there’s so much debate about how the Father connects with Jesus connects with the Spirit connects with you and me that I’m not sure how it all fits together (and which is why what was said in that letter from Jesus I shared is encouraging to me).
My prayer life, to be honest, pretty much consists of ‘help me’, ‘thank you’, and ‘I don’t get it, but okay’ and presenting mental images and feelings to God when I can’t find words, or the occasional haphazard attempt at praying in tongues, or just longing and aching in God’s general direction, or something like that…
But then maybe God is okay with that, maybe Jesus is okay with that, I don’t know…

I believe, but I need help with my unbelief, and I’m unsure about just about everything much of the time.
My faith is pretty vague and ambiguous, and by no means systematic or all mapped out with Bible verses or airtight logic to back it all up and often I feel like I’m just winging it.
But then God (Father, Jesus, the Spirit, or whoever/however) has brought me through so much and has been so good to me, has been so patient with me despite all my stumblings and fumblings, so kind to me despite all my faults and flaws, has blessed me so much even though I feel as thought I don’t really deserve any of it. And I’m thankful for that.

But in spite of all of that I admit that I have an easier time getting excited about, say, the new Superman movie, or sitting down to some good book or listening to some good music, or something like that, than getting excited about God or Jesus. :neutral_face:
But nevertheless, I will say that thinking of God, or Jesus, sometimes brings out a deeper longing and aching within me than anything else does.
I want to believe, to trust, to learn the meaning of life and know the depths of the love of God and understand the truth and find that it is freeing rather than oppressive, find out what love is all about, what life is all about, and all of that…
I want to understand why I’m here, what this whole show is about, and what part I have to play in it all. I want to find where I truly belong, to find my way home, wherever home is, and find real peace and true joy, find healing and freedom, and all of that good stuff…

Blah, I’m rambling again :laughing:

But if you don’t mind my rambling, and would like to hear more about where I’m coming from when it comes to all of this, feel free to check out this note, or essay (of sorts) rather that I wrote on Facebook. :slight_smile:

facebook.com/notes/matthew- … 4916675509

Thank you again for sharing your story and may you be blessed :slight_smile:

Matt

#11

Hi Edward, Good to hear from you. I will tell you a story. About six years ago I had been thinking for some time, here we are with enough money to live on, a pretty secure pension, we live in a nice community with a lot of nice people, but there did not seem to be a vibrant church body and I was feeling really bored, like we were not growing - I felt no impetus to ‘get in the word’ much. Then, something happened, caught us by surprise and blam! We were on our knees - I even had fear we would be murdered. Things seemed to work out, not without hardship and difficulty, and then a few years later another wave hit, but this time, I had ordered ‘the word of promise’ - the Bible on CD with various actors reading, and I have been washing my brain with it pretty regularly, also, going on the forums my husband is on and taking more of an interest in the things of God.

We have found through it all that we are surrounded with people who really know what love is - the princes of His people. We have found that the riches of Christ are far more valuable than money and other things of this world. I still take an interest in book reviews and movies and such, but not as much at all. We have lost the companionship of many people whom we had enjoyed, but whose company was not really edifying, and I had never felt that we were able to add to their lives - they were just not interested in the things of God.

Most of all, we have become much more thankful for the treasure that we have in Him. Who knows, we are over 70 and closer to the resurrection and our new glorified bodies - it is good time that we lost interest in the things of this earth. There are a few things I would like to finish up for my childrens’ sake but other than that. . . sayonara.

After the last election, I woke the next morning sobbing. I began to pray in tongues with great passion and felt the love of country leaving and zeal for the Kingdom of God to take its place. Since then, I don’t pay nearly as much attention to what is going on - gov has always had evil elements to it - that is not going to change. Anyway, my zeal is for the kingdom of God.

So, dear Edward, fasten your seatbelt - you may have quite a ride coming up in the future!! With love, Jean

#12

I went to the facebook link and there is nothing there. I am now loading Lonnie Frisbee youtubes. The first one said that the problem was it was no secret that he partied Saturday night and preached Sunday morning. If he means party in the sense that he was without morals on Saturday night - that is a huge problem, like not laying down your self-life. I will look further and watch the youtubes. I will try the FB link from time to time to see if it wakes up.

Also, another source I look to is the reviews on amazon - often people will link to other books and movies and websites.

Again, it was good to hear from you. Have a good evening.

#13

Thanks for your response, Jean :slight_smile:

Maybe it’s because I’m still young, but I admit I’m pretty worldly (if you want to call it that) a lot of the time.

I have had my quiet moments to be sure, or moments of deep longing and aching, moments where I felt God was right there, like I was on the threshold of something beautiful and wonderful… but a lot of the time I feel like I’m in something of a fog, or just kind of coasting along, kind of winging it on life, hitting it at times and missing it at others.

I’ve sometimes wondered if I’m a bit autistic, might explain some things. I was pretty withdrawn and weird growing up, and though I’ve learned some things, I haven’t grown out of all of that…

To be honest, I’ve never really equated God very much with fun or adventure, like I would comics or video games or that sort of thing. But then I get the feeling that I’m only just beginning.
I have so much to learn, so much more room to grow.
Maybe God has more fun and adventure in mind for me then I would think. Maybe walking with God isn’t meant to be some flat and joyless affair as I’ve often feared it would be.

I was having a conservation about this sort of thing with a friend of mine online the other night, maybe I could share some of it here:

Well, there’s some of our conversation. Anne has become a good friend in the last year or so over Facebook, like a sister, even though I’ve never met her, and probably never will in this life, as she lives in Kenya. :neutral_face:
But I’m thankful for the internet, as it’s gotten me in touch with a lot of wonderful people like Anne :slight_smile:

I’ll go ahead and continue this in another message so I can break things up a bit, and use my smileys. :wink:

#14

I admit I’m not a big fan of the Bible, I have mixed feelings about it. I think there are some very beautiful and meaningful and encouraging and thought provoking things in it, to be sure, but then I think there are some very ugly and whacked and discouraging and crazy things in it too, and that’s my honest evaluation.

I would like to read through it again sometime though, as when I read through it before I read it through a lens of more traditional theology and fear… maybe in reading it through a lens of more universalist theology and hope I’ll get more out of it, and it won’t bother me so much…

But whatever the case, I admit I don’t base my faith so much on the Bible, but more on my own experiences and the achings and longings of my heart, which I am looking for answers too…

To be honest, I don’t really consider myself an evangelical, even if I consider myself a universalist.

I tend to equate evangelical with conservative, and I’m not really conservative. But then again I’m not 100% liberal either.
I try to see things from both ends as much as I can, try to stay in the middle, be more moderate.

I don’t even feel comfortable calling myself Christian, because that term comes with so much baggage.
I’d feel more comfortable calling myself an awkward and haphazard follower of Jesus, and a broken and flawed and yet still loved child of God. And I’m just Matt, and I’m a work in progress.

I’ve found that there are people who aren’t too interested in God who can be just as loving, if not more so, as people who are interested. And I don’t think I’d want to shut anyone out just because they weren’t ‘spiritual’ enough.
But then I don’t think that’s what you were trying to say. It’s true that some people can just kind of drag you down, but then that may not have as much to do with where they are at concerning religion as it may with other factors.
But then that’s just my two cents.

And I’m trying to understand the treasure that I have in Jesus, whatever that treasure is… I know I don’t sound very confident, and I don’t mean to be depressing… it’s just because I want to be honest with how I really feel. There’s still a lot that I have to learn, and I’m a journey.
But I do want to be more confident, like others I know, like yourself Jean.

Maybe as I get older I’ll become more and more confident in my faith, as you have.

I admit I’m not the kind of person who gets too worried about politics, and I’m neither anarchistic nor jingoistic, just kind of neutral when it comes to how I feel about America.
But I think it’s cool how God has led you into focusing more on the bigger picture rather than worrying about political stuff. That’s awesome, and a good place to be I think :slight_smile:

I think we probably see some things differently, Jean, but I can sense that you have a kind and caring heart, and I do appreciate your encouragement :slight_smile:

And about Lonnie Frisbee, he was a prophetic healer that came out of the Jesus Movement during the 60s and 70s, and one of the things he struggled with was his homosexuality, which was of course was unacceptable, and still is, in many churches where he ministered, and even which he helped get started.
But despite his struggles God used him in some pretty powerful ways, and though he was bitter over his rejection for some years, eventually he forgave everyone, and asked for forgiveness for his years of bitterness as well, before dying of AIDS at age 43. The documentary was sad but thought provoking. You may want to give it a look.

Here’s a link about him on Wikipedia if you want to read more about him:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonnie_Frisbee

Just to say, I actually don’t have a problem with homosexuality. This would be one of my more liberal sensibilities I guess, but it’s mainly because I have a couple close gay friends and I have heard their stories and have got to know them as people, and like with Lonnie Frisbee, God has worked in and through their lives in amazing ways, and that has really challenged me. And whether it’s okay or not, compassion should be the order of the day, I think, when it comes to things like this.
People are people, and regardless of how different they may be from you and me, and these kinds of issues are often not as clear cut as some might believe them to be. And that’s just how I see it.

If you disagree, that’s okay, we can agree to disagree, and still respect and care about one another and share the same kind of hope, that one day everything is gonna be okay for everybody. :slight_smile:

Oh and here’s a link to a video my pastor, Steve Doss, just posted, where he interviews me on his broadcast program, Higher Ground. May give you a better feel for the kind of guy I am. :slight_smile:

youtube.com/watch?v=TmfioVS5Hp0

Blessings to you Jean, and thanks again for your comments :slight_smile:

Matt

#15

Hi Matt - I really enjoyed the interview and your pastor is really a precious man.

We had a busy weekend and I am still a little discombobulated so not able to write much now but would like to answer your letter more.

I have friends who are very much in the world - one of them was a JW and he had a revelation one day, he said it was much like religious revelations people get, and it was that none of any of it is true, God or the Bible or Jesus. Amazing. I play music with them and a homosexual friend; we have a cup of tea and laugh a lot - and I can speak freely, like "In church the other day I met . . . " and they accept where I am. I believe that eventually love wins - it just absolutely does.

Bless you dear Matt - I am enjoying getting to know you.

#16

Glad to hear that, and yeah Steve is a great guy and a good friend and mentor :slight_smile:

That’s okay, no need to rush :slight_smile: And I get pretty discombobulated myself sometimes, so I can relate :wink:

I have a co-worker who’s a JW, and she’s a nice lady and we get along pretty well, even if we don’t agree on everything.
And that’s a strange revelation that your friend got… so he got a revelation of atheism? :confused:
I guess we’ll all know for sure about what the truth is about everything sooner or later though.
And that’s good to hear that you have a gay friend. My apologies for assuming that you were too conservative for that sort of thing… most people in their 70s these days tend to be that way, but I have to remember that there are exceptions. :wink:
Sounds to me like you’re a little more moderate, and open-minded while at the same time having strong convictions, which I think is a good balance. :slight_smile:
And that’s cool that you can connect with people that you don’t see completely eye to eye with.
And I too believe that love wins in the end… it’s a great hope to carry in your heart. :slight_smile:

Bless you too Jean, and likewise :slight_smile:

Matt