The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What is God's Wrath?

Theology Biblical Theology
#1

Not sure if this would fit better here or in philosophical. I’ve been wrestling through this question lately, and it recently came up in a discussion I was having re: universalism. So I thought I’d put it out here for discussion.

As a discussion starter, from Pete Enns blog:

"Here is Luke Timothy Johnson’s comment on what Paul means by “the wrath of God is revealed from heaven” in Romans 1:18.

…it is precisely the sort of expression that would have been instantly grasped by Paul’s first hearers but seems puzzling and off-putting to present-day readers.

The “wrath of God” (orge tou theou) is not a psychological category but a symbol (widely used in Torah) for the retribution that comes to humans as a result of their willfill turning away from God; indeed, it is a concept that derives precisely from the prophetic warnings against idolatry (see Isa 51:7; Jer 6:11; 25:25; Hos 13:11; Zeph 1:15).

Although it plays a thematic role in Romans (2:5, 8; 3:5; 4:15; 5:9; 9:22; 12:19), it is used elsewhere by Paul as well for the eschatological (“final”) threat that looms over those who oppose God.

God’s wrath is therefore the symbol for the destruction that humans bring on themselves by rebelling against the truth. For those alienated from the ground of their own being, even God’s mercy appears as “anger.” It is a retribution that results, not at the whim of an angry despot but as the necessary consequences of a self-distorted existence.

Here is what I think Johnson is saying. Wrath is not psychological on God’s part but symbolic of the destructions humans bring on themselves. He seems to be saying that wrath is not something God does to anyone out of anger, but “retribution” in the sense of consequences experienced because of alienation, i.e., of God “giving them up” to live with the consequences of their actions."

So, what do we think the wrath of God actually is, in light of universalism?

#2

Hi Melch - I was wondering exactly the same thing last night as I read Romans 3.
I can’t give an answer myself so look forward to input from others but I don’t understand one phrase from Johnson:

I’d like to see an example of that.

#3

I think the wrath of God is wrath, in the form of displeasure expressed through the natural consequences of actions, but also as supernaturally enacted disciplines and retributions against iniquity as well. The Greek is pretty clear, as you showed(orge tou theou) and I think anger is a facet of God’s emotional make-up. I think, speaking for myself as a universalist, that God’s anger is still intrinsically yoked to His mercy and desires to see the reformation of the actions and attitudes of the one(s) He is angry with. IMO His anger is like the night- always swept away by the morning of His mercy- but sometimes the night is intense- and for good reason, that we reach for the day, and amend our ways, and embrace the divine nature. Mercy triumphs over judgment, because all judgment is motivated in the long view, by achieving the merciful state in the one being judged.

#4

I agree, Eagle’sWay. I fully expect God to be angry with me if I oppress or treat badly my fellow human beings. And I expect Him to be angry with them if they mistreat me. After all, He’s our Father and He wants us to treat one another lovingly.

#5

Wrath is extreme anger. God is a mighty God. Hence, He has greater depth of emotion and life then we do. Our anger does not even compare to His. Think about it. He has to deal with the injustice of all humanity over all history. I would be pretty pissed too.
What’s interesting to me is that God’s wrath somehow doesn’t conflict with His sovereignty. If God created all things into existence and foreknew everything then He knows how everything will go. His anger must be like His love in that it is an emotion. God has two wills: plan and desire. He eventually gets what He wants but until then sinners face both natural and supernatural consequences, as Eaglesway points out. God’s wrath is the causation for such consequences. And as Eagleway pointed out in one brilliant paragraph, God’s wrath works out for the better because God is Love.

#6

Hi John… I think it might be a case of God’s fierce displeasure (wrath) was often felt on the way to His inevitable mercy. Covenant faithfulness would mean taking an easier route, but as is amply demonstrated in Israel’s story she often took the long hard way around… and YET in the end God was their Saviour.

Psa 99:8 O LORD our God; You were to them God-Who-Forgives, THOUGH You took vengeance on their deeds.

Lam 3:31-32 For the Lord will not cast off forever. Though He causes grief, YET He will show compassion according to the multitude of His mercies.

Isa 54:8 With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment; but with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you,” says the LORD, your Redeemer.

Isa 60:10b For in My wrath I struck you, but in My favor I have had mercy on you.

Jer 10:24 O LORD, correct me, but with justice; not in Your anger, lest You bring me to nothing.

#7

Excellent verses. I think one could say God’s discipline is as a bit and bridle, His anger like the whip :astonished:)

"Be not like the horse or the mule which must have a bit and a bridle or it will not come nigh unto you.’

Eventually the whole creation will be set free from futility into the glorious freedom of the children of God, but in the meantime, all things are being subjected to Christ, and some of the subjecting is intense, but in the end all judgment will be swallowed up by mercy, healed through reconciliation- YAY :astonished:)

#8

Just reading the latest version of the inescapable love of God by TT. Just reading his take on this which is firmly based in Gods nature as love and thus even his wrath will always be in our best interest. I think Sherman often says that Gods aim is to burn the hell out of us all. That is truly in the best interest of each of us irrespective of the correctness of our theology or even none.

#9

Cheers Dave and Eaglesway perhaps I can liken it to a Dad who has told his child not to run into the road, the child runs, the Dad is angry in snatching hold of the child and pulling him/her back and the quick angry reaction was an act of mercy?? Does that come close?

#10

Great analogy, Pilgrim! That’s the way I see it, also.

However there is a lot of theology both modern and ancient, that affirms that God is impassible. Here’s the way the reasoning goes: “If God experiences any emotions, then there is a change in Him. But if there is a change in Him, then it can only be for the worse. Since He is perfect, He is immutable. There can be no change in Him. He remains unaffected by His creation, and Biblical statements that He exhibits emotions are merely figures of speech or anthropomorphisms.”

#11

I see it that way, but also, if a Dad sees his big son take his little son’s toy, or hit hit the little guy, for say, the third time in a week he gets angry at the contrary nature and takes the older son aside and expresses the consequences of continued predatory behavior- even to the extent of punishments that fit the crime and unpleasant enough to induce meditations on a better way :slight_smile: < got the smily rite lol

#12

Paidion,
then how does God experience life then? If He has no emotions, then he has no way to process the information that He sees happening in real-time (human-time). I guess a better question is do you believe in the concept of God having two wills?? Just curious. :question: I guess this question could be tied to one’s theology, right?
Nick

#13

I could be wrong but I think Paidion may have just been pointing out the position of certain theologians. That position however simply imposes a simplistic assumption that logically feeds into all these confused arguments, IMO.

“For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed” was NOT just some carte blanch unilateral statement about whether God “feels” or otherwise (we know He does as Scripture testifies abundantly so); this is God expressing His underlying and unwavering INTENT of faithfulness to His people even in the face of their unrighteousness etc (Rom 3:3-4a).

#14

Paidion,
I apologize. I should have read your comment better. Please forgive me. :blush: