The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What is justification and why is it necessary?

Evangelical Universalism
#126

R.C. Sproul:
“Here we reach the ultimate point of separation between semi-Pelagianism and Augustinianism, between Arminianism and Calvinism, between Rome and the Reformation. Here we discover whether we are utterly dependent on grace for our salvation or if, while still in the flesh, still in bondage to sin, and still dead in sin, we can cooperate with grace in such a way that affects our eternal destiny.”

That’s another of those ‘either-or’ fallacious statements centered around the Reformation struggle with ‘monergism’.

Either “we are utterly dependent on grace for our salvation”
or
“while still in the flesh, still in bondage to sin, and still dead in sin, we can cooperate with grace in such a way that affects our eternal destiny.”

That is a tangle of concepts and does nothing to clarify what the issue is.
The code words are ‘utterly dependent’ ‘grace’ ‘salvation’ ‘still in the flesh’ ‘dead in sin’ ‘cooperate’. The way they are arranged stacks the deck.
Both sides would say that yes, we are ‘utterly dependent’.
Both would say they believe in ‘grace’
And both would agree that someone dead in sin cannot lift themselves into rightness with God.

But still there is disagreement, because the connotations of the code words are derived from an entirely different background theology.
It’s why we talk past one another so often - even our beloved religious terms are context sensitive - in the above case, the same word can means different things against a when placed in front of a different theological underpinning - how is communication even possible?

I would suggest we all read “Philosophical Hermeneutics” (Here) but that might not be possible. (Yes I have a gift for understatement :laughing: )

#127

Dave, to be honest, RC Sproul was the person who made me get sick about the reformed idea of scripture. I actually threw up when I heard a sermon of his.

God it was awful :blush:

#128

I had much the same experience Chad.

#129

Me too! I’m glad we share that common ground :slight_smile:

#130

Davo, you seem to be adverse to works for some reason. God has commanded us to work and for very good reason. The way I see it, works are an integral part of salvation and righteousness. Furthermore, I think the lack of works is part of the problem. We can all get stuck sometimes in our mundane little worlds. Going out and helping someone else can be a very humbling experience and a real eye opener. It not only touches our own lives, but the life of the recipient as well. Children need to also be doing some works which helps them grow and mature into better adults. Why do you think so many people were flocking around Jesus? When we fail to do the work of God, we become spiritually starved.

#131

Just a brief footnote here. I believe even the Roman Catholic church, has gotten away - from a system of works righteousness. And I don’t think it is found, in Eastern Orthodoxy or the varieties, of Protestant theology. :slight_smile:

#132

Are ‘both sides’ using the code word ‘works’ in the same way, or are opponents attacking what they THINK the other person is saying?

‘Work’ is a loaded word. What do you mean by it?

#133

Let’s try one example definition - from bit.ly/2DrwCiU

#134

Is anyone here using the word in that way, I wonder? Or does each side use it in a different way?

#135

I reccommend reading “Of Justification” ccel.org/ccel/gill/doctrinal.vii.viii.html and “Of Other Eternal and Immanent Acts of God, such as Adoption and Justification” ccel.org/ccel/gill/doctrinal.iii.v.html. This is crucial because if you couple this doctrine, justification from eternity, with the doctrine of universal atonement, you necessarily have a form of Universalism.

#136

DaveB said:

And Bob said:

We may not agree on the where with all of each of our beliefs, but this is a great group of folks.

Peace. :laughing:

Chad :wink:

#137

HFPZ, thanks for the article on the works. :slight_smile:

Dave, There is a difference between spiritual works and “the works of the law”/Jewish law, the works of the one true God vs. the works of pagan gods/man. From what I understand the Jewish law was not the work of God. By claiming to be doing the work of God, Jesus was basically considered heretic.
As Matthew 9:35-38 points out, “Jesus went through all the towns and villages teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and healing every disease and sickness. When He saw the crowds, He had compassion on them because they were harassed and helpless like sheep without a shepherd. Then He said to His disciples, " The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest field.”

God does not want us to be ignorant and led astray by every false god that comes down the pike. Our belief in the Spirit is not blind faith. We follow Jesus because our faith is justified ( proven or shown to be right) by works. As Jesus said " If I do not do the works of my Father, do not believe Me, but if I do them though you do not believe Me, believe the works so that you may know that the Father is in me and I in Him."

The sacrificing of animals and other ritual practices were the “dead works” of pagan gods, while the spiritual works of Jesus were bringing people alive. 'He that believes in Me, the works that I do, he shall also do." This is the Law of reciprocity, the Golden rule, and reaping what we sow in a positive way.

When one is persecuted and put to death for simply teaching and doing the work of God, something is terribly wrong. This is why Israel fell and their works were “burned up in the fire.”

#139

Your faith is justified by your works - proven, declared to be real, genuine. Not to earn salvation, but to give evidence that faith is real and is in the God who raised Jesus.

#141

You might want to think about that.

#142

Bro, I would take an alternate view to that. That is pure and unadulterated works righteousness. When you look at a person and say that there is no evidence that that person is a person of faith, you are treading to ‘Luther’s’ salvation by faith. In other words like you say, you have to DO something to get something. Luther said “you have to have faith” You said “Your faith is justified by your works - proven, declared to be real, genuine”… so who in hell is going to make that assessment?

Just asking :laughing:

#143

Yepper :wink:

#144

Chad my brother :smiley: there is NOTHING ‘work-righteousness’ about that. Nothing. I did not say that you become righteous by those acts.

Your FAITH is proven to be genuine by continuing in well-doing and seeking glory and honor and immortality. Not perfectly, no; but there must be some substance to our confession.

Is that just not common sense? How ELSE can one’s faith be genuine? Because one feels like it is?

I’m gonna sit firm on this, because the accusation of ‘works’ just is not to the point.

But remember - I build guitars! I have some redeeming value! :smiley:

#145

That is where we differ and where the historical context of faith becomes interesting. From my perspective, In Jesus’ time and the time of the apostles right after him Faith in Jesus was very important. You know I believe and I think you know the preterist view. The verbiage of all of the NT scriptures was that of a soon coming Christ, a end of the old covenant and a new dawn to the new covenant. So going back, There is no need for proving faith because righteousness was a given through the new covenant.

So, the difference is interesting. How do we Judge or do we judge another’s faith? And ultimately if we do judge them on what grounds is the judgment based?

I know for a fact you are not a creed guy!! :laughing:

#146

God wants people to be righteous. You are right that an unbeliever sometimes does good works, but he is unable to live a consistently righteous life without the enabling grace of God (made available by the sacrifice of Christ) to assist him (Titus 2). The Christian can appropriate this enabling grace through faith.

#147

Yes, this is true. But can a person have the grace of God? Whether they actively know Christ or not? I say they can. I spent many years with this saint and authors, from the book at amzn.to/2DrPzkK. And with this Native American author at amzn.to/2rle0eE. They acted every bit as Christian - IF NOT MORE SO - then most Christians I know. And I became friends with them, years before they ever penned a book.

Just a couple of footnotes - on the Eastern saint - for you skeptics:

The book cover says at 100 plus, he can outrun (and outlast, mind you) - young folks. Well, I was in my twenties, when I hung out with him. And there were some other twenty-year-old men - who ran with him. We were exhausted, after a few minutes. And he didn’t even break a sweat!
And I and a close nurse’s aid friend, once measured his blood pressure. He had one blood pressure reading. And asked for another one, a few seconds later. Well, it changed in a matter of seconds - well over 40 units, on the blood pressure scale. He was controlling his blood pressure - of course.

I refer folks to the EO article on Inclusivist. Which is now an official part, of RC theology. And to the Calvinist theologian’s talk - at the Theosophical Society at youtu.be/5O81xzLnKGc

Let me share today’s reflection from cac.org/. It should be noted, I’m in harmony with the Franciscan and EO views - on this matter: