HFPZ, Yes, I say they can as well, and thanks again for the at-one-ment article. I found it very informative.
qaz, No. It’s not impossible.
MM, The way I see it you can either:
Do we have any other choices?
Oh come on, we all know that God is the One we ‘report’ to.
7 Do not be deceived: God is not mocked, for whatever one sows, that will he also reap. 8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
Or just as clearly:
6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8 but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11 For God shows no partiality.
Uh…kinda clear?
NO? - how about:
5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you.
I cannot think that we START with preterism and THEN make these scriptures fit somehow - that seems bass-ackwards to me. If someone can explain these away by hiding behind a certain theory of ‘righteousness’ yadayadayad - well ok - but to answer the quoted question above - God is the judge of whether your faith and mine has been real, or a mixture, or an idol of our own making.
I’m trying to work my salvation out but I am deeply concerned about my tendency to see what I want to see. That’s why I’m going very slowly through Romans and trying to see what Paul sees.
Well, I came across another definition of justification today. It came from my weekly Patheos evangelical newsletter. I also receive the Catholic one - by the way. Let me share the story - that caught my eye:
Kenneth Copeland Loves His New $36 Million Jet
Let me quote a bit - from the article. So we can see the “justification” part:
Well, if you can believe demons fly on airplanes…then you can buy into, my version of the tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse.
Imagine having to pray for people - on a plane? Who would think that “a man of God” or’ minister of the gospel" - should be doing that? 
Of course it’s not impossible. Some non-believers have even sacrificed their lives in order to save the lives of others.
What is impossible for a person who has never experienced the enabling grace of God in his life, is for him to live a consistently righteous life. He who has submitted to Christ and appropriated God’s enabling grace CAN live a consistently righteous life. Of course, in living such a life he may slip up on the rare occasion. But he can confess that failure to God and trust again in His Son and pray for that enabling grace.
For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)
Well, bro if we take your view that all of scripture is for all of us for all time, Paul clearly states all are sinners, and without Christ none are worthy. Which leads to the uncomfortable question of
You went on to say that
I would opinion the above quote having to do with what was going on in that time: IOW dealing with the jewish law keeping covenant:
We could ask, how much patience do we need? And obey what truth? You have in the past been a bit of a creed denouncer (and I agree)
If we look at it in your context, what is the line between seeking glory and doing good? Being self seeking and obeying truth? What is the evil that God would unleash wrath and fury and yet the very son he sent says to forgive and do not judge and go the extra mile. I would maintain that these things you point out are larger things than personal moral character here in 2018. This is talking about something earth/cosmos changing.
Your views might be valid but like I said, ‘who the hell is going to make the call?’
The preterist view does answer a bunch of questions. As does viewing the bible as a historical set of documents.
enough said.
Thanks for the response Chad. 
But I did NOT say:
And when you said
Well I could go step by step with you on this BUT since you said you were giving your opinion, I’ll leave it at that. I will also leave Paul’s words as they are.
Besides, each one of us shall give account of himself to God, and each one of us will be right and wrong about certain things, of that I’m sure.
Dave… while I agree whole-heartedly with that sentiment, and I do, can you not see THAT very notion is in play with the doctrine of “righteousification”?
The Rom2 texts you mention simply attest to the FACT that said “rewards” (or their loss Mt 16:27; 1Cor 3:13-15) are 100% relative to “works” and as such NOT a ‘salvific issue’ — understanding ‘salvific’ in its broader redemptive sense. This broader redemptive fulfillment of Mt 1:21 DID in FACT come in the work of the Cross, as per…
THIS then was the prelude to Paul’s… “Concerning the gospel they…” etc.
Again Dave… “works” are but a reflection OF righteousness NOT the means TO attain righteousness.
Paul is the one I was quoting. He seemed very clear, and in fact goes on to say that:
You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
A few things here - he’s not talking about the Jewish law. And he is not saying that everyone has the Spirit of God in them - in fact, those that don’t do not belong to Christ.
His words. This is Paul, who understood the Gospel, and was working to build churches. I see no reason to believe that the truths he spoke so cleary were meant to ‘peter out’ after 70 A.D.
I am not saying that I think we are forgiven for our sins, or add to Christ’s work, by earning it. But I do think Paul spoke clearly on the issues I raised above. Would that he had spoken that clearly all the time. 
By ‘righteous’ you SEEM to be thinking of a status, if I understand you. I don’t think you are saying that by faith we start doing righteous things. And it appears that Paul believes those ‘things’ are what matter in the long run. To be declared righteous, right now, is to go against:
14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. Is that not clear that NOT everyone is a son of God? How much clearer could it be?
It is wholly unnecessary to say that to Dave B. Neither Dave nor I hold that works are a means to attain righteousness.
We both believe that agent of righteousness is the enabling grace of God that Paul describes so well in Titus 2, and that we appropriate that enabling grace by faith.
Yes… in the big picture, correct. There is as I understand it a difference between ‘status’ and ‘standing’. Status is what Christ brought humanity locked in Adam out of, and then into, i.e., out of separation and into reconciliation. Standing is that position of servant-hood believers exercise via faith. Christ is the source of BOTH… one generic and the other specific. Some might view it as the difference between Providential grace and Enabling grace — either way all such emanates from God.
The condemnation was comprehensive as was the justification likewise comprehensive, AND no one’s agreement, belief nor permission was sought, considered or asked for. THIS “justification unto life” was the WORK of God and Christ alone.
I do think “faith” helps in the exercise of righteousness, i.e., enabling what God has done within to be a blessing without.
Certainly in the NT there is the distinction between sons or not sons and yet sometimes the language is somewhat generic, e.g., “children” etc. But that said… even where certain ones are being scolded as NOT sons the context makes it PLAIN that such were indeed sons but by virtue of their faithless disobedience were cutting themselves off from that very sonship.
I was merely reiterating a point from an earlier post.
Yep no problem… God’s righteous grace touches all — those who recognise it can duly serve those who haven’t as yet realised it. But it is a reality nonetheless, as per…
Paul’s… “the grace of God” was none other than Jesus — the one who appeared bringing salvation to all men. This was God’s unilateral act in reconciling all to Himself.
To those then grasping this reality Paul further stipulates the following…
So there is the generic along with the specific in play, which pretty much also reflects Paul’s words here…
This again demonstrates the generic along with the specific… Christ “died for all” is inclusive and generic, and yet more specifically… “those that live” are they that come into faithful service of Him.
Thanks for the explanation davo.
I usually see things, ACCORDING TO ANCIENT WAYS OF UNDERSTANDING. A better word for this is WISDOM TRADITION.
God gave the ancient Jews, the words of the Old Testament. But he also gave revelations to Native Americans, in the forms of visions. And they have ancient ways, of ceremony and healing (see Red Road Christianity).
The Eastern Orthodox, divide things into God’s essence and energies. And I believe that Native Americans, German healer Bruno Groening and Japanese light modalities like Johrei…learn how to tap into God’s energies - for healing purposes.
The ancient Buddist and Yoga traditions, give us ways of silent contemplation.
The healing modalities of Ayurveda, Homeopathy and Traditional Chinese Medicine, give us ways of staying healthy.
The Eastern Orthodox give us a Christian theology - unchanged (more or less), since the time of Christ.
Well, since I normally side with Eastern Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. Here’s what they have to say.
What Do Orthodox Christians Believe about Justification? A Response to Protestant Criticisms bit.ly/2mxjDRg
How Are We Saved? bit.ly/2B3DiNW
I just put on the EO glasses…or the Wisdom Tradition glasses…and I am good to go.
Sure. I like to hear the logical arguments, of folks like Davo, Paidion, Jason, Cindy or the Calvinist site Got Questions. Or the RC folks on EWTN TV. And how the ACNA priests, at the Anglican church I go to - see things. Or if TV evangelist Joel Osteen - has a particular spin.
But I normally wear the glasses, of the old ways - for the longest time… It reminds me of a song. 
I’m not sure that thinking of it in terms of ‘numbers’ is as fruitful as thinking of it in terms of ‘direction’ - what is the general direction of life that we choose to live? God is the judge of that, in the end; and we often, in our troubles, are not good judges of what we are doing in good will and what we are really just hiding from being responsible for.
But we can see, over time, what path we have chosen, mostly. And I think time matters. As someone pointed out, if you see two climbers on a trail standing and talking to one another, you can’t tell, until they move, which one is ascending, which one is descending, or if they are in tandem.
At a given moment, I am deeply given over to love for God and thankfulness; I hope for those moments to become much more frequent as I learn to be led more and more by the Holy Spirit; and there are other given moments when I am not progressing. But I do not consider a lapse to undue the work God has done in me. And lapses there are a-plenty, but I do sense that the journey has been toward God.
No, that’s not what we’re saying. But we’ve said it a dozen times, I think that’s enough for me.
Good fortune to you on your quest for …???
He might be looking, for the tribulation and the Zombie Apocalypse. Remember the song - follow the yellow brick road? Just change the title to
In the meantime…as a public service to this forum…I present the following, recent science article:
Here’s How To Survive A Zombie Apocalypse, According To Science
You are espousing the epitome of what in my opinion is the overwhelming evangelical mindset.
Dave you said:
How does that look, how does that work? What does that entail? If so much of our spiritual (or after) life may be hinged on that, I am seriously wanting to know what it is and how you think giving an account of himself is relevant? Will it be before we die, will it be after, does it really matter? It may not. Now I realize that you may counter with ‘I did not say that my justification hinged on that’ but the end story is that most of us who were raised in evangelical surroundings were exposed to the very scenario that qaz posted above.
Just a thought.
Love you Bro!
It’s what scripture says, Chad. You know as much as I do how that will work out. Be that as it may, it sure seems prudent at this juncture to be ready. Paul is very clear:
So we aspire to please Him, whether we are here in this body or away from it. For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive his due for the things done in the body, whether good or bad. Therefore, since we know what it means to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is clear to God, and I hope it is clear to your conscience as well.…
So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. Therefore let us stop judging one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother’s way.…
Amen.
No. I’m tired of the discussion. You point out the differences, maybe someone will get interested,