‘‘I believe protecting the Jews is not really a lie’’ I believe it is , but it comes down to what is know as
‘‘the lesser of the two evils’’ , I don’t think we are too far apart on the others things ! . the way I see it is that as I like to say
love without truth is not true love , and any form of theory that simply accepts injustice is inherently unloving therefore untrue !
as you can probably tell by now I loath the pious notion of pacifism.
I hope not – for my own sake: I’ve never heard a spoken word or had a vision myself. But I think there is obviously much room for such mystic experiences in the Yeshuan life – but I also think one should entertain a healthy skepticism and always try the spirits to the Yeshua of scripture. Well, that’s how I would approach them. I have certainly had very soft “mystic” experiences though and I think these should always be pursued and nurtured. I don’t do it nearly enough, but spending time in God’s creation in quietness, or in solidarity with those who suffer, can speak to the soul louder than a thousand voices or a thousand verses.
To answer the original question, I think we simply find truth in Yeshua and in our life in Yeshua. Yeshua proclaimed a life of salvation (not a future of salvation) in the Kingdom of God, and He showed this in what He taught and how He lived. Subsequently, I find the Sermon on the Mount/Plain particularly useful as a description of Kingdom-living (but we can find this in every other part of scripture – Hebrew and Christian alike – if we’re attentive enough). In my opinion, most of the other theological stuff is immaterial. Yahweh doesn’t care much for our elaborate theologies as I think He prefers a “foolish” childlike heart and a productive life. Truth is found in our work (cf. 1 John 3:18).
Awesome, Cindy! I love reading about how God is working with people. I think you are right in saying we should not gauge truth on personal dreams, visions or revelations. Which takes us all back to the stuartd’s original question, “what is truth”? How do we gauge it? I think they could be used by God in fellowship but, not as a gauge for truth. Has God given you things to share?
Great points.
Also good points. I agree with you. So, your last sentence, is it a statement or are you defining truth? I agree that truth should be found in our work, in creation, in suffering souls, and in scripture, and you said that very beautifully btw. My dad and I were just discussing this the other day. I grew up in the state of Wyoming. He was saying how sad it is that we, as people, have lost our “sense” of things. He recalled growing up hearing the “old timers” know what was going on with the weather, when to plant and harvest, etc. Now, we just turn on the TV or the Internet. We have lost much of the “natural way of things”, he said. The animals still have instincts, the trees still tell their stories but, humans have lost that “innate intelligence” given to him by the Creator. Awesome man, my dad. We had a 3 hour philosophical discussion. I am wondering, as stuartd asked, what could we all agree on as truth? Is there a standardized “way” to define it?
I think you are right, stuartd. I would not be comfortable gauging truth by these types of dealings with God. Although, there may be more truth in them than a discussion on theology.
It’s not the only criterion… however…
We are each in a different place in our life and pick things up from various sources.
The main source must be the bible.
For example - the more one reads the scriptures, the more they pick up. So the third or fourth time through one will pick up things that they hadn’t caught the first time. While they are reading, “life happens” and we read a few posts 
and and have conversations with friends etc. and pick up new ideas. 
We then need to compare what we read in our travels with the bible.
If we don’t compare with scripture then we can get pretty far off in a hurry.
I also think that there will always be different conclusions because the various life experiences that different people have cause them to see things from a different angle.
What is great about the bible is that it’s in written form which keeps it from changing. There are difficulties of translation, which is why I have switched to using a literal translation.
The point is that the bible has a consistent message. We need to conform our ideas to it and the way to get our minds around the message is to read it.
We’ll always be divergent, some more, some less.
all well and good with the responses but it still somewhat puts us back at square one ! moving the discussion in the direction of a theme that some of you touched on lets take the two highest commands 
the way in which you understand them effects the way in which you carry them out it !, once again bringing it back to ‘‘a theory’’ [theology]
Thanks, Kelly. I do LOVE my times with Jesus, hearing from Him and just enjoying His presence, and I believe that everyone who wants to can hear from Him in a way appropriate to the person He has made them to be. Not everyone gets long “words” to write down. One brother in our ekklesia often gets nothing but a single word – however that word is typically so rich that we’ll be discussing it for weeks. And yes, I’ll often share with the group what God says to me. You can read some of it (along with my own thoughts also) at my blog. journeyintotheson.com . I write in it rather sporadically, but over the years quite a lot has built up. 
I’m not sure whether this is entirely relevant, but I wanted to share this quote anyway This is from the introduction to Adin Ballou’s sermon ‘The Inestimable Value of Souls’ (1830) and proclaims his love for the universal reconciliation, his love for truth, and ultimately his love for our loving God in a challenge to his critics. (I am the biggest fan of Adin Ballou and I can’t wait to meet and thank him one day! He was the first person to really show me to Yeshua, even after nineteen years of evangelical Christian teaching – I am greatly indebted to him!) Apologies if this is off-topic!
I agree but also see a problem 
- lets take say, someone like Kenneth Copeland, he clearly has no problem with public speaking
and you wouldn’t want to have a go at him in his church .I get the impression he has pretty much no fear yet is one of the biggest false teachers to ever plague Christianity .on the other side of the coin I have meet some believers who have issues with nervousness yet have far more spiritual insight than dear old Kenneth ever will !
Give us unadulterated, immutable truth, whether it be lovely or hateful, joyous or grievous, desirable or detestable.
this is exactly an issue I was going to point out sometimes the truth is painful , at times it is horrific , sometimes hurtful
and other times such as the case with U.R.
B R E A T H T A K I N G
I don’t pretend I have a monopoly on anything so my parameters for heresy is rather small – I’m one of those newfangled "post-"evangelicals. But I still think, as Christians, scripture is our first guide towards truth. I think we could all agree, at minimum, that Yeshua the Christ is (or should be) our Lord and Saviour – this is the broadest, gospel-driven claim I can find in scripture. I know this is immensely ambiguous still, but I think it’s all that we have. And almost anything else is peripheral. (Of course, I’m not saying we should believe or live just anything.)
Thanks 
I think its important that we live truths in faith, so that we can see the truth when we live. It’s self-fulfilling. Practice makes intellectual truth see-able. I think anarcho-pacifism is a great example here, but perhaps a better example is our solidarity with the least, which was something I alluded to previously. When we align ourselves with the least, we are actually aligning ourselves with the least of the least: the Christ; in a symbolic experience that we can understand and others can see. I’m not saying that every poor individual is a type of Christ. I don’t think Yeshua was implying this at all in Matthew 25 – there are plenty of wicked least-people! But if we practice this relationship, our relationship with Yeshua ceases to be merely an intellectual assent and becomes a recognizable reality. I think a failure to recognize this relationship by being too haughty for the least, is equal to a failure to recognize our relationship with Yeshua (and indeed, His relationship with us). And evidently, failing to do so incurs some fiery pruning. So if you are grossly indifferent or hate aliens, the poor and minorities during the week, and then try to worship the least of the least on a Sunday, you’re not really getting it. I’m not saying every Christian has to be (or is called to be) a social worker or an activist (I don’t consider myself to be); but as Christians we do have to recognize Yeshua in the least, and bear practical fruits in that recognition. Doing anything else would be denying our Lord. I should emphasize, that while the least will benefit from our work, we do this work for ourselves. Because we are the people that predominantly need the fixing.
Some of the things Yeshua has called us to do are indeed worrying and difficult. But by practicing them anyway I think we can become really effective ministers of truth to the world. If we intellectualize truths, they become unrecognizable, irrelevant, unreasonable and the world sees them not. A good example is sexuality. I do appreciate if people are Biblically against homosexuality and transgenderism (I am tipped softly towards opposition myself), but too often their most vocal critics merely intellectualize an abstract belief – they do not dine with these"unclean" people and any beneficial truth they may have fails to minister to those who most need it! And because of this they can’t hear their painful stories. They cannot reason with them. They cannot sincerely empathize with them. They cannot cry with them. They cannot hope with them. Just as Yeshua would have/does. This is actually the same with pacifism. I hear too many Christians decry pacifism as repugnant, and yet, amongst the critics I know personally, I’m the only one refusing to put my head in the sand and am actually trying to do something about stopping violence now. 
I don’t pretend I have a monopoly on anything so my parameters for heresy is rather small – I’m one of those newfangled "post-"evangelicals. But I still think, as Christians, scripture is our first guide towards truth. I think we could all agree, at minimum, that Yeshua the Christ is (or should be) our Lord and Saviour – this is the broadest, gospel-driven claim I can find in scripture. I know this is immensely ambiguous still, but I think it’s all that we have. And almost anything else is peripheral. (Of course, I’m not saying we should believe or live just anything.)
agreed , scripture should be the first port of call ,other things come into play also like - reason !
‘‘come let us reason together’’ why on earth would GOD make such a statement if reason is to be frowned upon !
and not that I’m disagreeing with your other points w.a.a.b. but the theme of an intellectual faith often gives some the impression
[not that I am saying you intended this] that it should take a back seat almost . one book I read years ago that was addressing the toronto ‘‘blessing’’ put it this way
‘‘GOD never bypasses the mind’’ he always engages the mind first with the goal of changing the heart 
‘‘who is my neighbour’’ ? isn’t the nazis also your neighbour ? so which one would it be morally right to ‘‘bear false witness too’’ ?
Hi Stuartd,
The Nazi is my neighbor and I would do my best to show him Christ’s love but, it is not Christ’s love to bear false witness so, I would try to show the Nazi in a way that did not condemn my other neighbor, the Jew.
It seems that we all keep saying the summation Jesus made - that we should love Yehovah our God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength and love our neighbor as ourselves. Are we all agreed that we should seek scripture as the first “port of call” as stuartd and w.a.a.b. put it? And, are we all agreed that we should “do” scripture as Yeshua surmises in the two greatest commandments? It seems, after these, we should share with one another whatever He has given us to share as far as personal revelations. If we all agree that this is “truth”, the only other thing to pray about and discuss is what the scriptures actually say while we “do” scripture and to observe personal revelations in light of the scriptures, when anyone shares them. Is this how you all are seeing it?
this is why I believe this is a case of ‘‘the lesser of the two evils’’ [it’s a moral dilemma issue !] if asked ‘‘do you have any Jews hiding in your house ?’’ , to answer anything buy yes is [as I see it] being dishonest ! and hence bearing false witness
but if you were to answer truthfully a far greater evil would occur ! therefore in some cases lying is not only the right thing to do !, but the loving thing to do also ! 
It seems that we all keep saying the summation Jesus made - that we should love Yehovah our God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength and love our neighbor as ourselves. Are we all agreed that we should seek scripture as the first “port of call” as stuartd and w.a.a.b. put it? And, are we all agreed that we should “do” scripture as Yeshua surmises in the two greatest commandments? It seems, after these, we should share with one another whatever He has given us to share as far as personal revelations. If we all agree that this is “truth”, the only other thing to pray about and discuss is what the scriptures actually say while we “do” scripture and to observe personal revelations in light of the scriptures, when anyone shares them. Is this how you all are seeing it?
not quiet ! personal revelations increases the possibility for error , there’s no substitute for cautious exegesis !
arriving at what is true on a given topic involves quiet a bit [admittedly] for myself I prefer to read as much as possible on the issue including some material against the issue as well as for I believe this will give you an appreciation
for why those who hold a different view than yourself do but it also sharpens your position and in some cases if you are open ? changes your position but approaching it from just a ‘‘gleam the truth from the biblical witness’’ involves a range of difficulties that a good percentage of Christians simply don’t seem to take into account .e.g. looking carefully at the cultural background , the historical setting , who was being addressed and why , what issues were being addressed , what type of literary style is being employed ?
[e.g. parable , narrative , figurative ,ect] so just arriving at a truthful position utilising the biblical witness is problematic !
as I have said before you can take 100 Christians who all claim to be lead by the spirit have studied their bibles all their lives yet almost all arrive at different conclusions !!! this is reasonably self-evident ! so listening to a wide range of Christians from a range of different backgrounds makes sense and not just the scholarly but the simplistic also
[even though I prefer the scholarly ]
Hey, Stuart!
While it’s true that we won’t all agree on many issues, on the core issues we can agree; to whit, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and God the Son, and in Him we have redemption (and through no other) by His blood shed on the cross, through which we are reconciled to the Father, and that we have received the gift of His Spirit, who dwells in each of us and in us as His body. Beyond that, I think we can disagree on many things (short of flagrant and deliberate and unrepentant sin) and still remain in fellowship.
As for personal revelation, though, this is a thing God does for His people throughout scripture. We (most of us) agree that scripture is reliable, though there is some controversy over the specifics of just how and in what way. Still, most of us agree that we can trust at least the revelation of God in the voices of His acknowledged prophets. Any revelation that you or I (or anyone else) might believe we have received, which does not agree with scripture and with the character of God revealed therein by the whole witness of scripture, is false. Scripture is the ultimate voice by which we judge whether we have heard truly from God.
That said, there is no reason so far as I can tell to assume that God no longer speaks to His children. He’s often given revelation to me of meanings of certain passages that I would never have figured out on my own, as well as the occasional future prophecy (of only private significance) which turned out to be true, and not least, the odd urgent warning that has saved me considerable inconvenience if not pain and suffering. (Not that He always chooses to deliver us from these.)
Jesus said that His sheep know His voice and follow Him. Though it took me a long time to learn how to hear His voice, it’s not difficult. Nevertheless, as I said, it’s not something for brothers and sisters to part company over. It’s hard for us, though, not to be able to hear His voice and yet follow Him through the guidance of the Holy Spirit. And all because we’ve been told He no longer speaks to us? What else have “they” told us, after all? Everything traditionally believed to be true? The record thus far hasn’t been sublime, though I’m sure the intentions have (usually) been good. It may be worth another look through scripture to see whether or not God truly HAS stopped speaking to His people.
Blessings, Cindy
I agree with you on that! Although, I think personal revelations can be confirmed by scripture if they are from God.
I come from a background of historic paganism and I study everything from ancient history to modern day science. I have seen an application in every area of scripture and it does help in understanding scripture. However, even some history is inaccurate. If we are “taught” by the Holy Spirit, I think all truth will come. It seems to me that God is teaching people who are in different places which, could cause a difference of opinion but, if we are all open to truth and honestly seek God for it, I believe He would align us exactly where we are and each would have much to share within a fellowship of believers. I learn much from my children even when they were quite small and immature (or maybe it was me who was immature, LOL!). Anyway, if I can learn from a small child surely I can learn from someone else. We may start at different conclusions but, if we are all in earnest with God I think He would unite us in Him. I do think though, that we must start our searching with an honest look at scripture. No doubt we all still have much to learn on everything. I met with a group of women and went through the book of Luke. I was showing them where Jesus went to Jerusalem for the appointed days of Yehovah and taught about Himself as fulfilling these days. (I wasn’t the teacher, I was just sharing from a question on the lesson.) No one had ever heard anything I was sharing but, it was amazing that as everyone asked questions and added other scripture, I was learning from them, rethinking and understanding points I hadn’t before. The Holy Spirit was awesome in teaching us all. I’m convinced that teachers just start the conversation and the whole body, every member has much to impart.