W.A.A.B,
I was thinking about your statement above. I have never thought about myself as a pacifist, certainly not in my days prior to Yeshua. And, even since then, I think my view of American history, the idea of “fighting” for freedom has been more predominate. You have challenged my ideas in this area and going back to scripture with the idea, I see that if we obey God’s commandments, there is no reason to “fight”. Over and over He says, do what I have commanded and I will be your protection. The idea has occurred to me that we “fight” because we do not obey. And, taking that a bit further, we are basically fighting against God in His discipline of us. If we would simply obey God’s commandments there would be no need to defend ourselves (perhaps war, for some reason He called us to as in the case of Israel and possibly Armageddon). This is a very new concept for me so, that is a pretty basic idea right now. Just wanted to say thank you for sharing your convictions. 
Thanks Kelly! I hope that by sharing what Yahweh has shown me, it may help others in some small way. If not to convince others of my own position, to clarify and challenge their own. I get a lot from this board by hearing interpretations and challenges I wouldn’t hear anywhere else. Thank you, too, for being a part of that!
I agree with you on that! Although, I think personal revelations can be confirmed by scripture if they are from God.
I should qualify that statement but you have done it rather well with the above one !
avoiding the pacifism ‘‘debate’’ and going back to the issue at hand regarding truth and what Cindy has touched on a few times responding to myself. separation ! lets take say the health and wealth gospel, the Galatians warning comes to mind 
but that is fairly plain , if you were to go a bit deeper and look at the Pentecostal movement , quiet a few authors painstakingly go to great lengths to point out that pentecostalism is in effect another gospel ! with their doctrine of the second blessing subsequent to initial salvation [not all p’s accept this or fully agree with said timing ]
they believe in Jesus you might say - I would reply they believe in another Jesus ! , but quiet unlike traditionalists who really would condemn them. I don’t do this but that doesn’t equate to ‘‘acceptance’’ either !
so what is truth ? also revolves around just where does one ‘‘draw the line’’ ,that may well in all probability differ from person to person 
I think truth is always the same but, we aren’t for various reasons. God deals with us in our life experiences at different times, sometimes we don’t want to line up with Him and we go our own way. Sometimes we just haven’t learned particular things. We may be taught things that aren’t right and are unsure why God isn’t blessing us in the way we want. I don’t agree with the prosperity gospel thing. I don’t want to focus too much on what isn’t lasting because it cost me too much of what really matters. That said, I don’t think money is evil. The love of money is the root of all evil. I say we praise God for whatever He gives. Much or little has always been enough. You throw out some great questions, Stuart!
thank-you Kelly there’s more where that came from ! 
don’t misunderstand me I have nothing against money either not that it should be the be all and end all . but that nonsense I can’t stand and all done in GOD’S name ,personally I think its fantastic news that Benny Hinn will one day walk through those gates !,only he won’t be blaspheming GOD or wearing those silly white suites and enough bling to feed his followers for a year , and this is coming from one who got the book ‘‘the confusing world of Benny Hinn’’ into Australia with recommended signs plastered all over it ! 
would anyone else care to join in the discussion ? there seems to be plenty of observers but not many participants 
We are participating in silent observance 
Sometimes people have nothing to say. Sometimes this speaks loudest.
True: (1) : being in accordance with the actual state of affairs (2) : conformable to an essential reality (3) : fully realized or fulfilled b : ideal, essential c : being that which is the case rather than what is manifest or assumed d : consistent
Yes - highly important to most.
Fluid as ever.
And anyone who thinks they have the whole truth is (IMO) delusional at best, and dangerous at worst. Many of the worst acts in history were committed by men who were 100% sure that they were absolutely correct.
We are participating in silent observance Sometimes people have nothing to say. Sometimes this speaks loudest.
the smartest salesmen are the ones who shut their mouths and listen 
''one mouth , two ears two eyes ‘’
Yes - highly important to most.
Fluid as ever.
And anyone who thinks they have the whole truth is (IMO) delusional at best, and dangerous at worst. Many of the worst acts in history were committed by men who were 100% sure that they were absolutely correct.
true and perhaps this goes along way in explaining why there are soooo many damaged people both in church and who have left
but going back to my original intent and question that summed it up ‘‘just how do we arrive of a position that is reasonably
close to the truth still leaving room for diversity’’ this general issue has spilled over into my other post ‘‘GOD is love’’
for example I believe the doctrine of the trinity is fairly important some Christians don’t believe in it so how do you leave wiggle room for that person yet still being consistent with said belief while still taking into account the biblical notion
of ''loving GOD more than your ‘‘brother’’
I agree. I’m not sure about this idea but, it seems like each person in the body of Christ is given different truths, gifts, etc., to share with one another and that is why fellowship is so important. I think the Bible is a standard to cross check what anyone shares and also to gain more insight to what is shared.
It seems like the damage from the church comes from two extreme directions, 1.) pushing certain “pet doctrines” that are not scripture to an extreme where people are ostracized from the group. We know people who say you can’t drink at all, a woman must wear a skirt, no one can be at a beach because of immodesty, you HAVE to use the KJV only when you read. None of these things are commanded from the Bible yet, they push others to keep their own “man made” traditions and dogmas. My struggle was with their blatant disregard of scripture. But, now as I see their children getting older, I see them not wanting God because to them, He is a tyrant, wanting to oppress them constantly. It is sad.
2.) Discarding the Bible (except when authority is needed to push a person back in line with the leaders agenda) and coming up with a loose, almost non-standard in which any idea that comes into the brain must be brilliant because it is right and God. There is no accountability to any objective standard outside of self. Also, very sad. Both 1 and 2 are self idolatry because there is nothing outside of self to correct any wrong ideas.
This is a hard question! I think we must have a standard outside of ourselves that can confirm the standard inside. In this case, I would say it must be the Bible. I guess in a perfect world, we would come together, share what God is sharing with us in our own personal relationship with Him then, as one shares a certain thing God is teaching him/her, someone else remembers a passage relating to that, another looks it up and discovers an awesome tidbit, another shares a larger context, someone sings a song that reminds them of the whole thing, another gets a message to share with everyone, etc, etc. It seems like we would all come from “the thing” God gave individually and through the Holy Spirit working in each one, obtain a greater understanding or fullness and it seems that that point we would “arrive” at a "position that is a fullness of understanding and diversity at the same time. I think our diversity should compliment each other. I don’t think we can arrive at this point (if indeed this is the point we want to arrive at) without each seeking God spiritually and using a right standard/scripture. What do you all think?
This is a hard question! a rather valid one I would suggest
I think we must have a standard outside of ourselves that can confirm the standard inside. In this case, I would say it must be the Bible. I guess in a perfect world, we would come together, share what God is sharing with us in our own personal relationship with Him then, as one shares a certain thing God is teaching him/her, someone else remembers a passage relating to that, another looks it up and discovers an awesome tidbit, another shares a larger context, someone sings a song that reminds them of the whole thing, another gets a message to share with everyone, etc, etc. It seems like we would all come from “the thing” God gave individually and through the Holy Spirit working in each one, obtain a greater understanding or fullness and it seems that that point we would “arrive” at a "position that is a fullness of understanding and diversity at the same time. I think our diversity should compliment each other. I don’t think we can arrive at this point (if indeed this is the point we want to arrive at) without each seeking God spiritually and using a right standard/scripture. What do you all think?
here’s a problem I see with this nice sounding approach - what if the person sharing , shares something totally amiss but insists ‘‘GOD has revealed it to him’’ implication being that you should ‘‘accept it’’ making it authoritative
there must be an authoritive way of drawing a line in the sand and saying ‘‘that is taking diversity too far as it is just plain false’’ but this puts us back to the general Christian approach or i.c. approach 
perhaps it has some merit but the thing’s they oppose or I should say put forward as ‘‘the truth’’ simply aren’t
You got me, Stuart! :0 )
it brings us back to the other point that I believe you brought up ? the bible should be our authority ,I fully agree but this also brings us back to a point I made in the question of - just how does one arrive at an interpretation that is faithful to the biblical text yet leaving room for a degree of diversity I put the question another way [admittedly] but think putting it this way is far more
succinct.
anybody else care to join-in ?
Hi, Stuart
What happens in this situation is that John is busily clicking on his bible app; David is already beginning to give chapter and verse; and Shane, completely unconcerned about chapter and verse, is saying: “Uh, I don’t know about that . . .” I love these guys. The sisters will speak up too, if necessary, but the brothers typically dive in first, and they’re very tactful. We all call one another on things that are wrong and we all accept this – whether or not we agree with the “call.” An organic style church with at least several members well-versed in scripture is far better immured against heresy than your typical “one guy up front” kind of setting.
We are all well aware that any “revelation” inconsistent with scripture and/or inconsistent with the nature of God as revealed in scripture is false. We love one another too much to allow such things to go unchallenged when it comes to the surface, whether in our meetings or in private. I realize this can be a problem in the absence of brothers and sisters well-read in the scriptures, and if one is NOT solid in scriptural knowledge, that one would be greatly benefited by submitting his or her revelations to a more mature sibling for some evaluation and advice. However, that people can go wrong is no reason to throw out the living voice of God any more than we should toss the written word merely because bits have been and will continue to be misunderstood and/or mistranslated.
We are all well aware that any “revelation” inconsistent with scripture and/or inconsistent with the nature of God as revealed in scripture is false. We love one another too much to allow such things to go unchallenged when it comes to the surface, whether in our meetings or in private. don’t misunderstand me I’m not suggesting you aren’t like this
I realize this can be a problem in the absence of brothers and sisters well-read in the scriptures, and if one is NOT solid in scriptural knowledge, that one would be greatly benefited by submitting his or her revelations to a more mature sibling for some evaluation and advice. lots of people either don’t listen or listen to all the wrong voices
However, that people can go wrong is no reason to throw out the living voice of God any more than we should toss the written word merely because bits have been and will continue to be misunderstood and/or mistranslated.
are you thinking I am pointing in that direction ?
I believe everything but the first line you wrote and the last line is true.
Just saying concerning the first line, nowhere is the Torah ever referred to as the truth, even within the Torah itself. It speaks of the source of the Truth, and what true knowledge springs forth from it, but the Torah has never spoke the truth. Jesus made it clear as the Pharisee’s searched for life in the Scriptures and could not find it, and it stood before them, that which the Scriptures spoke about. I know it seems a paradox, but that which speaks about the truth, isn’t truth itself but just a messenger.
As for the last line, remember God created both good and evil (despite those who say otherwise). Not everything that comes from God is truth; he even sent an evil spirit to torment Saul.
Most people ignore me these days, and I am quite fine with that.
Well, it does kind of look like you feel God doesn’t speak directly to individuals any longer, Stuart. Lots of people do believe that God doesn’t speak today except through His written word. It’s not an unusual viewpoint. Some of the other things you’ve said (and I don’t remember specifically what) have hinted to me that you might be one of those who feel this way. Now please don’t think that, just because I disagree with this, that I’d be upset with you if it turned out that you take this position. There’s a big difference between disagreeing with a position and rejecting a person.
Since you’ve been asking about what a fellowship would do with a member who insisted on a doctrine that others in the group believed to be false, I’ll use this as an example (whether you, in fact, believe this way isn’t at issue, btw – you can clarify that in your reply if you want to).
If a brother or sister was offended when one of the group shared a direct message that they believed they had received from God (let’s say the message is given humbly and subject to approval, is unarguably scriptural, and that no one has any other objections to it, either), then what I see happening is that the group would discuss this viewpoint, and since I know them, I can say that many of them would attempt to persuade the offended person that in fact, God does still speak to His children. If this person couldn’t tolerate listening to such messages, then probably he would leave the group. No one would ask him to leave, but unless he changed his mind, he would most likely choose to leave because the group wouldn’t be willing to do what he wanted them to do. Sad, but it isn’t possible to please everyone all the time, and this is a pretty important part of our walk with God – we wouldn’t be willing to give it up.
Hopefully, the tone of my post comes across as friendly and sincere, Stuart. It is my feeling as I write it. I’m not upset with you whether you agree or disagree with me. That’s okay.
Blessings, Cindy
Obeying God’s commandments are the way of truth . . .
Remove from me the way of lying: and grant me thy law graciously. I have chosen the way of TRUTH: thy judgments have I laid before me. I have stuck unto thy testimonies: O LORD, put me not to shame. I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart.
(Psa 119:29-32)
All Yehovah’s commandments are truth . . .
They draw nigh that follow after mischief: they are far from thy law. Thou art near, O LORD; and all thy commandments are truth.
(Psa 119:150-151)
The law of truth . . .
The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity. (Mal 2:6)
God’s law is opposite of lying . . .
I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love.
(Psa 119:163)
God’s law is light to illuminate our path . . .
For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
(Pro 6:23)
The Pharisee’s were suppose to keep the Torah by faith. They did not. Instead, they made laws to add to Torah that they could obtain righteousness in themselves and to oppress and impress others. We are not to be so deceived. They thought they could be justified/obtain salvation this way but, salvation can not be obtain either by observance of God’s law or pharisee law. They we suppose to know and obey God’s law for holiness and so they could actually know who the Messiah was when He came. They missed it on both accounts. That is why Jesus says . . . For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (Mat 5:20)
I see what you mean, Craig. I see that God corrects those He loves, that He sends tragedy sometimes to turn a person to Him. It is still truth and it is still love. The truth is we are called to be like God. He is righteous in all His ways. Yeshua kept the law perfectly (if He would not have He could not have been a perfect sacrifice for our sins). It is all truth. The Bible says we will judge the angels. If God hadn’t allowed us to learn and understand right and wrong, there is no way we could do that. There is right and wrong – all of it is still truth.
I’m sorry Craig. Please forgive me if I have. I do not mean to.