What laws are Christians obligated to obey?

[Paidion]

Your contention is that until we accept the deliverance, deliverance is not possible?

Suppose you went to a prison, with a notice from a judge that the prisoner had been legally freed. But suppose the prisoner does not believe the notice, and refuses to come out of the prison. How is it possible to deliver him from that prison?

Perhaps the following is a better example:

Suppose an alcoholic is offered a program that can enable him to be delivered from alcoholism. But he doesn’t want to be delivered, and so he refuses to participate in the program. Since he doesn’t accept deliverance from alcoholism, how is deliverance possible?

[maintenanceman]

Your contention is that until we accept the deliverance, deliverance is not possible?

Suppose you went to a prison, with a notice from a judge that the prisoner had been legally freed. But suppose the prisoner does not believe the notice, and refuses to come out of the prison. How is it possible to deliver him from that prison?

Perhaps the following is a better example:

Suppose an alcoholic is offered a program that can enable him to be delivered from alcoholism. But he doesn’t want to be delivered, and so he refuses to participate in the program. Since he doesn’t accept deliverance from alcoholism, how is deliverance possible?

These are good examples. So a prisoner is suddenly freed from his/her capture, the freedom is there… If they choose to walk out of the cell, they will experience the freedom. If they choose to not walk out of the door, they will not experience the freedom of Christ, but none the less, the door, BECAUSE OF CHRIST is open. Christ has done what the Father has willed, the reconciliation has happened.

My position is to not somehow degrade Christ’s work because a person chooses not to accept it.

That is as plain as I can Make it.

My position is *what Christ has done *and your position seems to be what we are lacking when we do not choose to follow. In the end it is maybe the same.

[Paidion]

If they choose to not walk out of the door, they will not experience the freedom of Christ, but none the less, the door, BECAUSE OF CHRIST is open.

You are right! The door is still open no matter what their choice!

Christ has done what the Father has willed, the reconciliation has happened.

No. Any individual will be reconciled with God only if he chooses to be, through having a change of heart and mind, and submitting to the will of God, and afterward by faith receiving God’s enabling grace. God wants righteous people. If a person is unwilling to submit to God, then he will continue living in the same way without deliverance. He cannot be reconciled to God. But when he submits to God, his reconciliation to God takes place, and God begins to deliver him. Without submission to God, it’s a similar situation to that of the alcoholic who refuses to submit to a program that could deliver him from alcoholism.

[maintenanceman]

If they choose to not walk out of the door, they will not experience the freedom of Christ, but none the less, the door, BECAUSE OF CHRIST is open.

You are right! The door is still open no matter what their choice!

Christ has done what the Father has willed, the reconciliation has happened.

No. Any individual will be reconciled with God only if he chooses to be, through having a change of heart and mind, and submitting to the will of God, and afterward by faith receiving God’s enabling grace. God wants righteous people. If a person is unwilling to submit to God, then he will continue living in the same way without deliverance. He cannot be reconciled to God. But when he submits to God, his reconciliation to God takes place, and God begins to deliver him. Without submission to God, it’s a similar situation to that of the alcoholic who refuses to submit to a program that could deliver him from alcoholism.

Your view is understandable but flawed… Gods door is open. In this life we will choose whether we acknowledge and accept him or not. Our reconciliation in this physical life is as you say contingent upon understanding about what Christ has done. But the door is always open… Christ did the work and paid the price… The door , because of Him is always open! I think that when we travel from this side to the other, we will totally understand who and what Christ is and is about.

[LLC]

MM, The Jewish law was incompatible with God. Jesus gave us the Law according to God, so that we would know the way of salvation. As I mentioned before, some of what was in the Levitical Law was NOT from God, and there were also misinterpretations. Because of this, many were held captive by the law. The works of God were not getting done.

[LLC]

qaz, When the children of Israel delivered from Egypt, as 1Corinthians 10:3 says, “They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that followed them. And that Rock was Christ.” This means that they were all raised in the Word, given the manna from heaven( the bread of life/bread of heaven)and united in the Spirit( the same things Jesus taught). However, shortly thereafter, some turned away and worshipped the “golden calf” as it says in Psalm 106:19-22,“They made a calf in Horeb and worshipped a molten image.Thus they exchanged their glory for the image of an ox that eats grass. They forgot God their Savior, who had done great things in Egypt.” These people became the sons of Abraham through physical relationship only. No longer of the same spiritual “seed”, they returned to the foreign ways of the pagan gods, thus a mixing of the “seed”. Some of these beliefs are reflected in the Levitical law. Some were changed because the spiritual meaning of the words became lost and were instead taken literally. As Galatians 3:9 says, the Law was added to because of transgression. It was not God who added to the Law, it was man. It is a transgression to add to, or change Law. Neither are we to mix the seed as Deuteronomy 22:9 points out; “You shall not sow your vineyard with two kinds of seed, or all the produce of the seed which you have sown and the increase of the vineyard will be defiled.”

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

“Doing nothing is very hard to do… you never know when you’re finished.”-- Leslie Nielsen

An interesting question came to me. What are the beliefs of Eastern Catholics? And the answers are surprising, according to the forum discussion at forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=442041. Let me share one answer here:

I’ll address the second question first, since it’s the simplest to answer. Yes, Eastern Catholics have their own catechetical material (at least the Eastern Catholics who follow the Byzantine Rite do *). I recommend you check out the “Light for Life” series. It was written and approved jointly by all the different sui juris churches of the Byzantine tradition in the United States (as far as I know) and is published by “God With Us Publications”.

The first question is much more complex. There is little agreement even among Eastern Catholics about what our relation is to the “dogmas” defined by the West, in Western terms and according to Western tradition, in the absence of the East. I for one, and many Eastern Catholics that I know, follow Kyr Elias Zoghby and the Melkite Synod of Bishops in affirming that “I believe everything that Orthodoxy teaches; and I am in communion with the Bishop of Rome as first among equals according to the limits recognized by the Holy Fathers of the East during the first millenium, before the separation.” Do I accept the dogmas of the West, defined after the separation? No. But neither do I condemn them as false. Rather, I simply recognize that they are outside of my patrimony as an Eastern Christian.

I think the best and most concise treatment of this that you could possibly find is the “Your Word from the Wise” interviews done by Catherine Alexander and found on youtube. Fr. Abbot Nicholas and Fr. Maximos do a wonderful job in summarizing Eastern Catholic identity and belief, along with our relationship to the Roman West.
*

Let me quote another answer - in part:

Please do not be so quick to condemn Eastern Catholics. Metropolitan Kallistos as well as the late Archbishop Vsevolod of Scopelos have both stated that Eastern Catholics are Orthodoxy’s closest friends in the Catholic Church. The way I see it, Eastern Catholics are the one’s hammering out what the communion of Rome and Orthodoxy will look like. While both Rome and Orthodoxy simply talk about communion and make intellectual attempts at solving our differences, Eastern Catholics actually live that communion, with all of its trials and triumphs. It’s not an easy place to be in. But I think in the future, when there is communion again, both Rome and Orthodoxy will reflect back on the “uniate experiment” and realize just how much they have to be grateful for the work Eastern Catholics have done.

Or let’s look at the site at east2west.org/faq/doctrine/

Is it true that the Eastern Catholic Churches are allowed to have different theological exspressions? If so what does it involve?

This certainly is true. The Eastern Catholic Churches are not only “allowed” but are actively encouraged to cultivate their own distinctive theological expressions.

Eastern Catholics, while fully Catholic and in communion with the Pope, differ in more ways than just liturgy. We also possess a unique spiritual tradition, as well as a unique theological approach. While we agree with the Latin Church on fundamental matters of doctrine, we approach doctrine in a very different way – from the Eastern perspective. While the Western Church has traditionally formulated doctrine in terms of scholastic Latin theology, we rely almost exclusively on the theology of the Eastern Church Fathers. This difference, rather than rupturing the unity of the Church, further expresses the true UNIVERSIALITY of Christ’s Church.

This is authoritatively taught by the Second Vatican Council:

“All in the Church must preserve unity in essentials. But let all, according to the gifts they have received enjoy a proper freedom, in their various forms of spiritual life and discipline, in-their different liturgical rites, and even in their theological elaborations of revealed truth,” (UNITATIS REDINTEGRATIO, no. 4).

“What has just been said about the lawful variety that can exist in the Church must also be taken to apply to the differences in theological expression of doctrine. In the study of revelation East and West have followed different methods, and have developed differently their understanding and confession of God’s truth. It is hardly surprising, then, if from time to time one tradition has come nearer to a full appreciation of some aspects of a mystery of revelation than the other, or has expressed it to better advantage. In such cases, these various theological expressions are to be considered often as mutually complementary rather than conflicting. Where the authentic theological traditions of the Eastern Church are concerned, we must recognize the admirable way in which they have their roots in Holy Scripture, and how they are nurtured and given expression in the life of the liturgy. They derive their strength too from the living tradition of the apostles and from the works of the Fathers and spiritual writers of the Eastern Churches. Thus they promote the right ordering of Christian life and, indeed, pave the way to a full vision of Christian truth,” (ibid., no. 17).

So, given the answer - and the discussion. I guess I have to label myself Eastern Anglo-Catholic. Now I just need to consult my P-Zombie, Zombie and Holy Fool friends, to see what man made laws - we should obey.

But as the Eastern Catholic priest explained. The RC and EO theological lens, are 2 ways - of viewing the same thing. Like I can resonate with the Franciscan message today, of RC priest Richard Rohr (see cac.org/):

Waiting with Patience
Friday, July 21, 2017

If you are to live on this earth, you cannot bypass the necessary tension of holding contraries and inconsistencies together. Daily ordinary experiences will teach you nonduality in a way that is no longer theoretical or abstract. It becomes obvious in everything and everybody, every idea and every event, almost hidden in plain sight. Everything created is mortal and limited and, if you look long enough, paradoxical. By paradox, I mean something that initially looks contradictory or impossible, but in a different frame or at a different level is in fact deeply true.

I am talking about just holding the tension, not necessarily finding a resolution or closure to paradox. We must agree to live without resolution, at least for a while. This is very difficult for most people, largely because we have not been taught how to do this mentally or emotionally. We didn’t know we could—or even should. As Paul seems to say (and I paraphrase), hope would not be the virtue that it is if it led us to quick closure and we did not have to “wait for it with patience” (Romans 8:24-25).

I think this “opening and holding pattern” is the very name and description of faith. Unfortunately, faith largely became believing things to be true or false (intellectual assent) instead of giving people concrete practices so they could themselves know how to open up (faith), hold on (hope), and allow an infilling from another source (love). We share a contemplative practice each Saturday in the Daily Meditations so that these virtues can be “practiced.” But God gives us real practices every day of our lives, such as irritable people, long stop lights, and our own inconsistencies.

We must move from a belief-based spirituality to a practice-based spirituality, or little will change in religion, politics, and the world. We will merely continue to argue about what we are supposed to believe and who the unbelievers are.

Consider the wisdom taught in the ancient aphorisms and stories of Hinduism, Confucianism, Taoism, Sufism, Zen, Buddhism, the Jewish prophets, Jesus, Paul, and the Desert Fathers and Mothers. Much of their teaching feels abstruse, naïve, or irrelevant to us today. With only rational, dualistic thought available to most of us, we are unable to decipher koans, proverbs, and parables. For example, the man coming at the last hour receives the same reward as the one who worked all day. This makes no sense at all to a dualistic mind or to anyone who rushes toward a quick judgment. So we reject the story and merely forget that Jesus said it.

We need contemplative practices to loosen our egoic attachment to certainty and retrain our minds to understand the wisdom of paradox.

Gateway to Silence:
Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding. —Proverbs 3:5
Reference:

Adapted from Richard Rohr, The Naked Now: Learning to See as the Mystics See (The Crossroad Publishing Company: 2009), 107-108.

But I did give this forum topic - serious consideration. Especially after I read the BBC story entitled North Korea tourism: US ‘to ban Americans from visiting’ at bbc.com/news/world-asia-40680500. This is terrible. Simply terrible. Suppose I were a dual citizen. US and Canada. Should I disobey US law, by traveling under a Canadian passport? Perhaps travel from the US to Toronto first? Or perhaps Dennis Rodman, should get together with the ACLU - and initiate a lawsuit?

https://media.giphy.com/media/l41lIMLibNmOnqnGo/giphy.gif

Or suppose there is a law, that you need to help someone - in danger? Like they did, in the final episode of the Seinfeld TV show? Well, the BBC did publish a story entitled Do you have to rescue someone in danger? at bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-40680895

The vast majority of states in America do not put a “duty to rescue” on their citizens, but 10 do.

So, should we do this? Even if it puts, our own life in danger?

But my Zombie friends tell me - that “technically” - it doesn’t put their lives in danger

Today, Patheos had a good article, on the book of Revelations:

This Ain’t Your Mama’s Book of Revelation

Let me quote one interesting thing.

This is not my home, I’m just passing through” is a sweet hymn, but it’s wrong. We don’t spend eternity in some far away place in the sky. Rather, we spend eternity right here, on this planet, the way God intended from the beginning (Gen. 1-2). This place is our home, though it’s certainly due for a major renovation. Sin didn’t cause a Plan B in God’s sovereign blueprint. He’s not abandoning the Earth because we messed things up; no, he will resurrect his people just like he resurrected his Son (1 Cor. 15). Heaven and Earth were joined together in the beginning, and they’ll come back together in the end (Rev. 21-22).

This is something Anglican Biblical scholar N.T. Wright picked up upon, in his P-zombie solution at youtube.com/watch?v=vggzqXzEvZ0. Heaven and earth will come together. And if the Eastern Orthodox are right: Heaven and hell are being equally, in the presence of God. Then where is hell, if heaven and earth are joined together?

And we have the visions of contemporary, Old Catholic church mystic - Tiffany Snow in Armageddon - Who What Where When Why How:

Each person, grown to the state of perfection and fully aware of the history of love versus fear, will make their individual choice to live in a world of love or not. At the instant of their decision, God grants them their choice. For those who choose love, they will receive everlasting life on a paradise earth as God intended from the very beginning. For those who do not choose love, they and the unHoly Angels have the same outcome - their spirit will be physically changed. What does this mean? The spirit is energy, and energy cannot be destroyed, but it can be changed between two things: wave and particle. So these waves now become particle, and become part of the earth itself, thereby physically adding to something they were once bent on destroying. It is possible that none or very few humans will choose this; but the unHoly Angels have already made their choice, because the time for them to make new choices and come back to God had already expired when Armageddon began

.

if this vision is true, then the following positions on hell - are true:

Conditional immortality or annihilation
Hell as exile (see The Skeletons in God’s Closet: The Mercy of Hell, the Surprise of Judgment, the Hope of Holy War by Joshua Ryan Butler on Amazon).
Anglican Biblical scholar N.T. Wright’s P-zombie solution at youtube.com/watch?v=vggzqXzEvZ0
Hopeful universalism

[maintenanceman]

MM, The Jewish law was incompatible with God. Jesus gave us the Law according to God, so that we would know the way of salvation. As I mentioned before, some of what was in the Levitical Law was NOT from God, and there were also misinterpretations. Because of this, many were held captive by the law. The works of God were not getting done.

Hi LLC
Please forgive me if I miss interpret you, but are you saying that some of the ‘LAW’ in Deuteronomy and Leviticus that are in our (and I’ll say protestant) bibles are not from God?

Cheers

[Paidion]

And if the Eastern Orthodox are right: Heaven and hell are being equally, in the presence of God.

I understand the Easter Orthodox to teach that there is only one “place” in the presence of God. God’s people experience it as heaven but those who have rebelled against God all their lives, experience it as hell.

I am reminded of C.S. Lewis’s children’s story—I think it is “The Last Battle.” The children and many others are in “Aslan’s Country.” But the black dwarves were in a stable, and even though they have passed into the next life, they think they are still in the stable. When someone offers them delicious food, they reject it in disgust, believing that they have been offered rotten turnips that were in the stable. When they are offered the choicest wine, they are even more disgusted. They think it is filthy urine from the troughs behind the animals.

[LLC]

LLC:

As Galatians 3:9 says, the Law was added to because of transgression. It was not God who added to the Law, it was man.

I had always interpreted that as saying because of Israel’s transgression, God added to the law.

qaz, There are many who believe the same thing as what you have said. However this is not true. As Psalm 119:89 says: “Forever, O Lord , your word is firmly fixed in the heavens.”
Psalm 33:11
Psalm 55:19
Psalm 102:25-27
Psalm 119:152
Psalm 119:160
Malachi 3:6
Isaiah 40:8
Matthew 5:18
Hebrews 13:8
James 1:17
1 Peter 1:25
All of the above verses, plus many more, say that God’s word is unchanging and was established at the foundation of the world. There is only one God, one word, one way to salvation. It is what Jesus taught, the way man should walk according to God, and was made known from the beginning. If God is the one changing the Law, His word cannot be trusted. What if someone came tomorrow and said, " What Jesus taught you is not working because people are still sinning. You must return to the Levitical law and start sacrificing animals, etc. etc. Maybe this will teach you to obey God’s words." Would you believe they were from God ? Why or why not?