What must be denied to reject UR


#1

What must be denied to reject UR –

– 1) That love never fails… (1 Cor 13:8)

– 2) That where sin abounds, there Grace abounds all the more… (Romans 5:20)

– 3) That God’s victory over sin and death is total and complete… (1 Cor 15:28)

– 4) That ALL will be made alive in Christ… (1 Cor 15:22)

– 5) That every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord… (Phil 2:10,11)

– 6) That since Christ was lifted up, all men will be drawn to Him… (John 12:32)

– 7) That when Paul exults that death’s victory and sting are no more, this means all death for all time; it means that the grave no longer holds anyone… (1 Cor 15:55)

Sorry to be so blunt…
I’m sure the other side could make a list of what, per them, I deny…

TotalVictory
Bobx3


#2

I particularly like

and yes the other side could. But as Talbott says, everyone has to deny something.

Which denials do more harm to God?
Which bits are we more comfortable losing?
And which “remaining bits” leave God as all-powerful, all-loving, all-kind, all-grace, all-holy, all-seeking-the-lost and all-forgiving?

For me now, it’s a no-brainer :wink:


#3

“That every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord… (Phil 2:10,11)”
Couldn’t an annihilationist claim this?


#4

Sure, if they re-interpret “every” to mean “every who hasn’t been annihilated”


#5

It seems to me that (1), (4), (5), (6) are denied. But an annihilationist could agree that (2) and (3) are true by arguing that (2) just means grace is available but finally rejected and on (3) that God’s victory is complete and total once the wicked are annihilated. And on (7) can’t we all views agree that all are bodily resurrected to face judgment?

Tom


#6

Final rejection would be the greatest sin possible. If this sin abounds, it would be meaningless for grace to abound even more, but Paul assures us it does. Therefore, final rejection is impossible.


#7

Hi Alan,

You may be right. But I think one could argue that though grace is rejected by the wicked who are finally annihilated (or expire), it was always that case that grace was accessible and sufficient to restore. I have different reasons for thinking annihilation is false, so it doesn’t concern me much. I’m just saying an annihilationist could respond to Bob and say, “It’s not exactly the case that I deny the grace abounds wherever sin abound.” But if you’re right, it’s no skin off my nose. :wink:

Tom


#8

Yes – you are right Tom.
I’ve written this for selfish reasons I confess: this afternoon I go to my first mens book club discussion (it was I who suggested Love Wins!) so in a way this will be my “coming out” event. (Though I’ve not made it a secret I’m a Universalist! ie my own pastor knows… and periodically interrupts his otherwise great sermons with a shove against the idea – even as he looks in my direction! – that the lost can and do choose eternal annihilation and God must “let it happen”…)

And we all were raised in the annihilation tradition. So any discussion of “hell” in their minds just puts them on the sidelines because they say of course a loving God wouldn’t “do” that (torture forever) but He MUST “let go” – by which they mean let go for eternity.

But I shall try to argue that when Paul uses the rhetoric of deaths sting and victory being GONE, and being no more, its very hard to insist that those yet held in the grave (which to us means annihilation) doesn’t enshrine the victory of death forever. So even ONE dead body would subvert his argument it seems to me. For THAT body WOULD be deaths victory and sting.

And I shall try to argue similarly that the language of Grace trumping sin (it can become a vicious cycle: resisting greater grace IS a greater sin which only means greater grace – and so on…) simply gives no quarter for sin winning over grace. The idea that I can resist grace with greater urgency and persistence and effectiveness than God can woo and convince and arrange circumstances which will eventually “get through” to me is what I think this text refutes…

But technically yes, what you’ve stated IS what these gentlemen will try to argue…

Thanks

TotalVictory
Bobx3


#9

Look forward to hearing, TV, how it goes.


#10

Yes amy – I posted my report over here…

Thanks for the support/encouragement!

TotalVictory
Bobx3


#11

8, That His love is UNconditional.