The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What universalism allegedly teaches

Someone claimed:

“You do know Universalism teaches the wicked will be put in the lake of fire and tortured until they repent and turn to God right in the fire of second chances of no scripture dear friend.”

In your view is that correct?

I assume there would be Preterist Universalists objecting to that. If not a percentage of other universalists as well.

Actually plenty of Prêterist Universalists do agree… Pantelism however which is an inclusive prêterism doesn’t — acknowledging John’s ‘lake of fire’ equates to Jesus’ ‘gehenna’ and is indicative of the AD70 conflagrations of Jerusalem, i.e., Israel’s ‘second death’ — from which there was NO resurrection… it all refers to the end of the Mosaic age and has naught to so with postmortem realities, i.e., it’s all about history.

I am a hopeful universalist, [a lot more hopeful than not]. In the small write up you posted, I disagree with the comment,
“ God doesn’t hold any one accountable
for their sin.”
I am a firm believer the unrepentant will be accountable for their sin at the second resurrection.

I too am a HU & as everyone knows in Rev 20 Jesus is judge and we are judged by our works, so that says there is a distinction made. We don’t know what happens in the LOF or even what it is but at the conclusion of Rev the HS & Bride invite “whosoever” to drink from the water of life, so this sounds like an invitation to folks in the LOF.

I’m also a HU. I hope that invitation is extended to any zombies from Z-Hell (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9). :wink:

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So while my Christian faith path will be Catholic…I’ll incorporate the wisdom and contemplative methods, from these traditions:

Well, the Roman Catholic church does teach:

  • Christian inclusivism
  • And allows for Hopeful Universalism.

And if any is in hell - even temporary… the Eastern Orthodox / Eastern Catholic perspective is the best way - of understanding it.

Well not sure , after all their names are in the Book of Death!

To be honest Steve, i would always argue
on the side of U/R now, i think I see enough scriptural backing for it to be true. Its probably more along the lines of “old habits die hard” In my case. Spending so long believing in annihilationism the old doubts creep in now and again, so I would say the “hopeful” is more a failing on my
behalf than not seeing it in the scriptures.

I don’t know of any universalists who think people will be “tortured”.

I’m actually on your side but i think numerically there is about equal weight for A vs U , but the fact that it is God’s will that everyone s/b saved & that Rev 22.17 is to me the most powerful verse in the bible, three verses from the end of the bible does lend weight to U , but i
can’t dismiss the Annihilation verses either.

Jesus said everyone will be salted with fire. Salt is a preservative. It never goes bad. That seems to contradict any notion of annihilation.

There are verses that seem to contradict either way & if you just take a limited group you can eliminate the other view but in totality i think it’s close. It could be that some are annihilated but then resurrected at the judgment.

Now that’s getting very close to my school of thought.

Thanks all for your input. Keep them coming!

After more thought on the matter, here is how i responded “last night” (post # 516 @ the url below):

“Some CU say those humans in the lake of fire are, in general, dead, their view of death requiring that the dead are not conscious, so they cannot be being “tortured” as you claimed. Well, that’s just one view. There are others. For a second example, some would object to your word “torture”. Most versions say “torment”. Some would render that “tested” or “tried”. A third example would be preterists who view the LOF as a past accomplished event, so no one “will” ever be (future tense) tortured there. That’s three universalist views that differ from what you said universalists teach & there are probably others as well.”

Plenty of universalist preterists teach - all - the wicked will be (future tense) “tortured” in the LOF “until they repent and turn to God right in the fire”?

And “plenty” don’t?

For me personally, it all becomes messy when one believes in the immortality
of the soul, or some self existing spirit after death. The bible says the wages of sin is death, from dust you are and dust you will return [ie] no longer conscious. But the gift of God is age abiding life. For me,
the bible teaches that life will once again be restored to all mankind at either one of the two resurrections. To be resurrected, punished and put back to death seems to fly in the face of “the wages of sin is death” surely it is some what unjust and unbiblical to bring a person back to life just to punish them and kill them again when they have already paid their price at their first death.…Now seeing I won’t
entertain the nonsense of E/T, it only leaves me with U/R were the resurrected faithful will live and reign/judging with Christ in the kingdom, and the resurrected unfaithful will be out side of this kingdom, separated from Gods goodness and light were they will be accountable for their sins, until they are all reconciled to God through Christ, and God becomes all in all. [ie] The restitution of all things including all people’s.

This comment may offer a somewhat different perspective, with AFAIK some similarity to the Eastern Orthodox view:

Post #885 @

And from the same poster at #889:

“God is the consuming fire of love. His method of conversion is based upon love and compassion not retributive justice.”