The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What's the point?

Hi all, I’m relatively new to universalism, still studying it. I mentioned to a friend of mine that I was reading through some books on universalism and he asked me a question I couldn’t really answer. “What’s the point?”

By this he means what is the point of accepting Jesus Christ as your lord and savior in a confession of faith. What’s the point of the gospel. What difference would it make?

I realize this is a vague question, but does anyone have any insight on this, or perhaps point me in the right direction for additional reading?

If it comes to a question of “what’s the point”, your friend need not start with us but with Jesus, since the sheep in the parable had no idea that they had been serving Christ at all!–yet Jesus says they had been serving Him faithfully and welcomes them in anyway with honor. It’s the people who were surprised to learn they hadn’t been serving Christ who are in trouble.

Be that as it may. At root the question is one of cooperation with God or rebellion, and sooner or later that becomes a question of Jesus’ identity, thus a question of cooperating with Jesus. More truth is better than less truth, and if Jesus either is God or at least the chief agent of God then it’s proportionately important to be working with and not against Him (even though He’s willing to be charitable about that).

If those are established (that we should cooperate with God and that we should cooperate with Jesus) then when it comes to our sins what are we doing? – are we renouncing our sins and asking God to save us from our sins? Are we trusting in God to save us from our sins? Are we comporting ourselves to obey and cooperate with God? If we are doing these things and Jesus is centrally involved, especially if Jesus is the action of God Who is God Himself, we had better be seeking salvation from our sins from the one and only ultimate source of salvation from sin.

Therefore I confess Jesus as my Lord and as my Savior, and trust Him to save me from my sins – and not only to save me but to save the whole world. If I deny the Lord God saves other people from their sins, I would be denying the name of Jesus (“The Lord Saves”)! – and if I deny the Lord saves, then how can I be saved!?

As to what difference the gospel makes, it’s still rather astonishing news that the one and only foundational ground of all reality is not only actively personal but is personally interested in saving those who act against the ground of their existence – so much interested that this God Most High sacrifices Himself for the sake of His own enemies to save them from their rebellion. There really isn’t anything else like it in any theology or philosophy I know of, and i sadly find that even people who know and believe this are routinely astonished to learn that such a God really is essentially love, really is an active fulfillment of fair-togetherness between persons. That not only makes a difference in how we learn we ought to behave toward other people ourselves, it makes a huge difference (once people work out the implications) in how we ought to expect this God to act in saving His enemies: not only some but all enemies, and not only for a limited time but always, and not with possible failure but with certain eventual success.

(Which not incidentally is why I find that non-universalists, even when they are dedicated Christian trinitarians, always sooner or later end up inadvertently denying some point of trinitarian theism. Which I wouldn’t mind so much except that the fruit of this denial, a gospel of some kind of hopelessness, ends up routinely being one of the great stumbling stones to evangelism. And also they of all people ought to know better: I expect inadvertent denials of omnipresence, or claims that God can do or not do love, or that God can act to fulfill final non-fair-togetherness between persons while still existing Himself, from non-trinitarians. At least they’re being somewhat coherent with their own beliefs when they do so!)

The Gospel of hope of salvation from sin makes a huge difference. Learning that God Most High exists and voluntarily suffers with the innocent, and even goes so far to save His own enemies while suffering in solidarity with the guilty, makes a huge difference. It resolves the problem of intentional evil and of inadvertent natural suffering; it gives us clear goals to aim for in our cultures and in our personal lives, and gives us assurance that those goals will be met; it gives us a clearer standard to tell when we’ve been sinning even if we have been following the letter of the Law, and to tell when those who do not know the Law are nevertheless following the Law in an honorable way. It leads us to recognize self-sacrificing love as the highest authority, rather than fundamentally worship mere power to cause effects; which in turn inspires us to regard the authority to serve in human culture as higher than the authority to be served (without simply renouncing the latter). It leads us to regard true love as ultimately rational and responsible instead of only some kind of emotional reaction; and to reject unloving reason as a crime against other persons. It leads us to recognize justice as primarily and positively being the fulfillment of fair-togetherness between persons, without denying that punishment is sometimes necessary, yet while guiding what ought to be the goal of any punishment. Heroes can fight chivalrously and valiantly to the final blood, and can chivalrously give their final blood for the sake of loving and saving their own enemies. Love and justice are the same action in regard to persons looked at from either side of fulfillment; and love fulfills the law and sets it aside.

Accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior makes a difference to me anyway. :slight_smile: And learning that Jesus originally loves and gives Himself for all sinners, whether those whom I love or those whom I hate, and will keep on at it to victory, makes a difference to me. Among other things, it means if I’m not joining Christ in this, then I’m the one in rebellion! – but it’s something I can clearly and reasonably see reason to join in with. I don’t have to guess whether God intends to save that person over there (or me!) or not; I don’t have to guess whether God will keep at it for him or for her (or for me!) until God succeeds. I only have to be sad about sin; I don’t have to be sad (or for that matter glad!) about the hopeless finality of sin, whether explained by appeal to God’s potency or to His impotency. Where sin exceeds the grace of God most certainly hyper-exceeds, for not as the sin is the grace – I don’t have to guess whether it hyper-exceeds sin for this or for that person, or whether it doesn’t because God doesn’t give that grace at all or because sin turns out to hyper-exceed God’s grace.

To put it shortly, fair-togetherness between people is the point. It’s not only the point, it’s the root and ultimate ground, not only of morality and ethics but of all existence. I confess the Lord’s salvation as my Lord and Savior, and not only for me but for all the world as well.

The sooner more people come to learn that and how to apply it, the better off the world will be now, and the less trouble there will be in the future by proportion, which is still very much a goal with giving my little shoves at the yoke for (even though the Strongest Ox is pushing the weight of that goal Himself–but if I didn’t cooperate with Him, then I wouldn’t be cooperating with Him, would i?) If i think that the promise of a certain happy ending leaves me free to be lazy and uncharitable now, I’m going to increase the trouble for myself and for other people between now and the happy ending – even from a purely pragmatic perspective that would be foolish (as well as immoral).

And that’s my little sermon on that matter. :sunglasses:

(But here’s around seven minutes of another even more evangelical little sermon on the matter I gave at the end of a radio debate with a Calvinist proponent of ECT, rather than spending my final minutes summarizing my position. :slight_smile: )

Yes, What Jason said (well done as usual!) And also . . . my own little rant :wink:

The point is Jesus. This is the thing that bugs me most about the non-universalistic belief system. Heaven becomes the goal; someplace (hopefully good) to go to when we die. “There’s a hell to shun and a heaven to gain,” the preachers say. And I say, “What about the fairest of ten-thousand to our souls? What about the Lily of the Valley, the Bright Morning Star? What about our King who is mighty to save?”

Jesus came to save His people FROM THEIR SINS, but if you ask the typical evangelical, she will look puzzled and mumble about making your life so much better now and going to heaven when you die. “What do you mean, ‘What did Jesus save us FROM?’ Isn’t that obvious?” But in fact it isn’t obvious. I personally had to look it up. What is the gospel? I asked a friend this, and she gave me approximately the answer above. It took less than two minutes. I’ll try to remember approximately what she told me:

And that’s more or less the whole picture. And my dear friend whom I love much, much, hasn’t got a clue. But she was all out of breath and happy from having said it and I didn’t have the heart to point out that this was not, in fact, the gospel according to Paul (or Jesus either, for that matter). She already struggles with fear that she might not be good enough and could end up in hell, and that people she loves will almost certainly go to hell. (And I’m pretty sure she’s worried about me also.) She’s Arminian if you need to ask. Her husband is Calvinist (sort of) and I think he leans more toward my beliefs that Jesus really is the Savior of the World (not just part of it).

So what’s the point?! Really? What’s the point? Is this person even “saved” who asked you this? The goal is to be reconciled to our Daddy through our Elder Brother who came to save us from our sins and bring us home. If you don’t come home, then you won’t BE home until you do. Today is the day of salvation. Seriously; God is GOOD. Why would anyone who knows Him at all even consider holding his distance from our loving Father, causing Him pain of separation, and all for the sake of more and more and more “delicious” sin? I think that a person who really holds to that (and I doubt your friend really does) even knows God yet at all.

Wow, a lot to digest. I read through both of your posts once, but I think i’ll need to do it a few more times to let everything sink in.

I do appreciate the response, it is very helpful to me. I intuitively feel like universalism is correct, but I’d like to actually be able to express that fact and defend it. I haven’t felt like I’ve been able to though. This helps a lot, thank you.

In short, as I see it… confessing Christ is acknowledging that as best possible you are intending to serve God by serving others. As God’s agent this is what Jesus did – he came to serve, not to be served. In acknowledging Christ you’re saying you’re following the Saviour’s lead.

I think the point is that if you believe Jesus LOVES you, He wants what is very best for you, He would do ANYTHING for you, He did die for you, He is PERFECT, then why WOULDN’T you want to have a relationship with him? Why would you want to miss out on being connected with the most awesome, powerful, loving, holy, amazing God who is willing to and wanting to connect with you? If you realize who God is you trust him, love him, and what could be better? A life of sin? Sin is fun sometimes but it is NOT fullfilling. Sometimes it is easier but it usually comes with consequences that are painful and difficult. A life that is pleasing to God is difficult to but it is difficulty worth fighting for.

I happily chose to go through the pain of labor to have a child, it is much more fun than going through the pain of a terrible illness. The pain and hurt in our lives from sin is like pain from sickness. The kind of pain that comes from making God Lord in your life is like childbirth pain- totally and completely worth it!

How could I not want to tell people about this amazing God? It is a fairy tale ending in a very painful hard world! It is hope for this life when things get hard. It is a constant reminder that I have the best Father anyone could imagine and he is constantly by me cheering me on. How could people not want to worship that creator just because he isn’t threatening them with ECT? EU makes me want to worship him like never before, and share how wonderful and perfect and powerful he is to fix everything!

Not only that, but the scriptures also apply that analogy to God (making Himself Lord of our lives) and to people punished by God (where God has in view their eventual repentance and restoration). Totally and completely worth it. :slight_smile:

BPW, that was beautiful! I love the analogy between the pain of childbirth and challenges of embracing the kingdom of God. Awesome.

And in answer to the OP; we actually preach the same thing John the baptist, Jesus, the Apostles and the prophets preached. “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!” It is within reach and can be grasped, participated in - the abundant life of Christ, a life filled with the Spirit of God, inspired and empowered by God Himself, citizenship, even sonship in the kingdom of light, delivered from slavery in the kingdom of darkness, saved from this “present evil age”. And we pray, “Your kingdom come on earth today as it is in heaven eternally!” Infernalism in effect prays “Help me get into your kingdom in heaven someday, but not today.”

Why do we love Jesus and follow Him?

  1. He first loved us.
  2. He died for us to reveal His love for us and our value/worth to Him, in effect saying “You are worth dying for!”
  3. He sets us free from sin and demonic oppression, making us more than conquerers, holy and righteous.
  4. He heals us of our disease/s of the spirit, soul, and body.
  5. He makes things right.

Well, I could go on and on as to why I love Jesus, but it primarily comes down to #1, because He first loved me! And I wonder why people think that having faith in Jesus to ultimately make all things right, to save all in any way deters us from loving Him now.

Why evangelize? Because we love God and love people. One naturally talks about what one loves. And when one loves others he naturally shares what he believes will help others. So if the gospel, the good news of God’s love for us, is truly the power of God unto salvation then we’ll not only embrace it ourselves but we’ll naturally want to share it with all whom we love. And I’ll tell you what, the messge of UR is really “Good News”. Infernalism is “Bad News” for most people.

Love and faith are much more empowering and lasting than hate and fear!

My friend Fr Stephen Freeman is awfully good on this topic. He has addressed it many times on his blog “Glory to God for All Things.” The predicament of humanity, he likes to say, is not forensic and therefore cannot be solved by forensic solutions. Our predicament is existential and ontological: we are trapped in death and if we continue in this condition we will find that our lives have become, and perhaps already are, a living hell.

Hence when someone asks “What difference does faith in Christ make?” there can only be one answer: it makes the difference between life and death, not just in the eschatological future but right now, in the present. If it didn’t, it wouldn’t be worth worrying about.

A few of Fr Stephen’s articles that are worthy of our consideration:

Saving Faith

The Nature of Things and Our Salvation

Communion as Salvation

Saving Communion

Therapeutic Substitutionary Atonement

We are made for participation in the eternal life of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; yet we find ourselves alienated from this life. Our problem is existential and ontological. Why believe? Not because only card-carrying Christians get into heaven, but because he is the Way into the Life for which we were created.

i think that question illustrates the paradigm shift one naturally goes through when examining UR.
rather than “the point” being a tiny moment in time of conversion, which somehow affects your eternal destiny, it becomes the process of reconciliation, of kingdom building.
we are not invited to buy a ticket to heaven…we are invited to join God’s creative process of building heaven here now.
it’s happening already. there are fits and starts, but the kingdom grows…however it doesn’t grow where those of us that believe in the ticket-out-of-hell scenario think it should.
it grows where people follow Christ, even if they don’t know they are doing it yet.
i personally don’t believe the Bible teaches a single moment of conversion for everyone. granted, that happened for some disciples and other characters in the Bible, and i’m sure for many of us. but regardless, even for those of us with that sort of moment of change that we can see, I think the Bible emphasises a lifetime of change, and growth. i certainly know at least a few “gradual changers”.

the point is nothing short of going into this transformative process with our eyes open. many Christians don’t, and so i doubt they’ve themselves made the jump. i know i have far to go yet myself before i am such a willing participant. the point is not a self-absorbed moment of mind-changing…but a long process of being transformed that takes our whole lives.

if someone misses this in this life…and makes their bed in the grave, God is there. so it’s not too late…but we have this privilege of being involved now: today.

for me, this question being asked with this premise of “conversion” is a bit like asking “why leave the house on a sunny day” or “why be born when the womb is so nice”…it betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of the point of ANYTHING as taught by the Bible.

why the gospel? it’s everything! it is the good news…that God so loved the world, that He wills that none shall perish, that He WILL be all in all. even ECT people agree with that, though they define it differently.
Jesus died to break the cycle, to show us what we are: murderers…but that we can be forgiven - our victims restored to life, just as He was restored to life. He died to take away our guilt and our sin.

Good answers. As others have said, I think that question (which is asked very often) arises directly from the degradation of Christianity into primarily a hell avoidance plan. Jesus says, “Whoever will save his life/soul will lose it.” If we’re only trying to save our sorry selves, we’re not there yet.

I thought Robin Parry answer the question well in this video: youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=p8sSQ-P3ckY that was part of the “Ask a Universalist” blog post: rachelheldevans.com/blog/ask-a-u … t-response

Sonia

I had never thought of it from that perspective Sonia, but you’re right. Infernalism at is core is all about saving your own skin, following Jesus not necessarily because you want to, but because you must in order to avoid frying. Where is the “free will” in that? Hitler treated extravagantly well those who believed in and followed him, everyone else he fried (literally for far too many).

The more I think about it, the more I see how infernalism is irrational, it perverts the character of God, changes the Gospel from good news to bad news, and fills people with a spirit of fear. No wonder most Chistians are not active in sharing the gospel of infernalism - it’s really bad news. It’s no wonder that so many people struggle to have faith in God when God is presented as a sadistic dictator who burns his enemies.

The word Believe comes from the Old English “be lyfen”, which means “to love”. It’s also related to desire. (lyfen:libido)

I believe God is good. ie. I love and desire the good. We all do, deep down.

A good story, however harrowing in the middle, must have a happy ending. We long for happy endings. The end of our earthly story is there for all to see: Jesus died and descended into hell. He rose again on the third day and ascended to his Father. What one man did, all men now will do.

Jesus promised the 12 that they would sit on 12 thrones. Judas was one of them. Even the son of perdition will be saved.

What’s the point? Reconcilliation with Jesus Christ of course. There has been no change to what is required of us. All that has changed is an unloving heresy called ECT has been exposed for the lie it is. For over 400 years the early church saw enough of a point to suffer persecution and martyrdom for their beliefs which never included ECT. Why did they endure that? They had a hope, in what God was birthing in them. That is still true today. The entire point of ALL of creation is for our Father to present to himself a body, a manchild company of ‘sons of God’. This harvest is the same as the original seed that went into the ground and died, namely Jesus so that he doesn’t abide alone, but gives birth to ‘much fruit’. We still need to be challenged, tested, changed and obedient and the old man or carnal nature still needs to die so that we can ‘put on Christ-likeness’ Nothing has changed except now we don’t get distracted by the lie of hell. Now we need to preach Christ crucified. We still need to count the cost when we become converted and quickened. It’s just not out of fear anymore. You tell your friend that. The true manifestation of hell is real. Just not eternal and tormenting. Mankind still needs to embrace the fires of purification before they are reconciled.