The Evangelical Universalist Forum

What's weeping and gnashing of teeth?

Theology Biblical Theology
#1

Matthew 13:42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be** weeping and gnashing of teeth.**

Matthew 8:12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be** weeping and gnashing of teeth."**

Whats weeping (or in some translations, ‘wailing’) and gnashing of teeth?

Seems if it were a literal fire, there would be so much more then just weeping and gnashing of teeth…I mean, i can pretty much get the weeping part, but gnashing of teeth???

And is the fiery furnace the lake of fire?

And…whats outer darkness?

#2

I think I can safely say it’s extreme anguish :open_mouth: However, as I said to a friend today, fortunately I also think “He will swallow up death forever; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of His people He will take away from all the earth, for the LORD has spoken.” Isa 25:8

People clench/grind their teeth when in pain, I wonder if that’s what “gnashing” implies?

#3

bibleforums.org/showthread.php/2 … g-of-teeth

Interesting discussion going on here.

#4

I believe it has to do with the prophecy of Dan 8. When Judea is no longer in favor of God. The destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. Matt 3:10.

#5

Weeping is associated with terrible sorrow and repentance.
Gnashing of Teeth (grinding your teeth) speaks of frustration, anger, intense pain,

It could speak of when we realize we’ve done something foolish, stupid that cost us terribly - thus frustration and anger at self. As in Ps.112:10 “The wicked will see and be vexed, they will gnash their teeth and waste away; the longings of the wicked will come to nothing.” It could then be speaking of the terrible realization of all the good things that God would have done in and through us “IF” we had simply trust and obeyed His Word and Spirit!

But it could also be related to Job 16:9, “God assails me and tears me in his anger and gnashes his teeth at me.” thus speaking of experiencing the chastizement of the Lord, from our perspective looks like and feels like anger.

It could also be referencing Ps. 37:12 “The wicked plot against the righteous and gnash their teeth at them”, thus speaking of how sin brings us to a place where people hate us and seek our destruction. And it also reminds me of the many Near Death Experiences where people say that after they died they experienced a hellish realm where demons were ferociously oppressing them, inflicting pain on them. Of course, these same people were subsequently saved from that realm, some even shown heaven, brought back to life. And the event forever changed them for the good.

Of course, many people read these phrases and think they necessarily imply ECT, but they don’t. Frankly, I believe they can reference all three of the above examples, anger/frustration at one’s self for the evil one gave himself over to and the pain they caused others, feeling God’s discipline of us as anger and even having God our Father angry with us for giving our lives over to sin, and angry/frustrated with self for all the good that we’ve missed out on for our foolishness!

Like Gehenna, it’s a phrase loaded with biblical meaning, “IF” one will set aside assumptions and research it a little!

#6

Just a very simple thought from a very practical standpoint…

I have had to pull my 16 month old away from playing with the electrical outlet numerous times. When he is stubbornly trying to pursue the very thing that could cause him irreparable harm, it is my responsibility (out of love for him) to discipline him and teach him to stay away.

In the midst of this, if I do something as simple as placing him in his playpen as a consequence of his disobedience, my sweet little boy will weep and gnash his teeth at me for frustrating his unknowingly self-destructive desires.

Anyone who has gone through the toddler years with a child knows that weeping and gnashing of teeth is a part of training up a child in the way he should go.

When we are stubbornly pursuing that which will destroy us, God, as our loving Father, will intervene to discipline and teach us in Love - and until we learn that He is doing this out of love for us, we will weep and gnash our teeth because we aren’t getting what we think we want - but He is giving us exactly what we need.

This is how I view the weeping and gnashing of teeth. This doesn’t speak to what exactly the discipline will look like for those who stubbornly pursue their own destruction, but I do know that the discipline will be for their own good… because that’s what a loving Father does.

#7

Try to keep in mind that Christ is ministering to the lost sheep of Israel and not all nations. If you read Matt 13, He is talking about the end of that age (improperly translated to world). It was prophesized in Dan 8. John speaks about it in Matt 3:10 and the parable of the rich man and Lazerus is also part of the prophecy. The nashing and grinding of teeth is symbolic for the Jews who will no longer be able to have daily sacrifices and their seperation from God. Remember in Luke 16 when the richman died and went to hades. This is my belief the second death as written in Revelations. The second destruction of the temple of Jerusalem, as the first time it was destroyed by Babylone around 800 BC. That age is gone now as we are now in the age of the gentile.

#8

I’m very much in agreement with this. Those who are to do the gnashing are the Jews because up until then, they’ve always deemed themselves as the “chosen ones”. Which was “why” Jesus went into the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man was depicting the Jews, they were all about the drama. They saw everyone who wasn’t a Jew as dogs. But now Jesus was telling them, they only reason those who are “chosen” are chosen is because they’ve responded to come into submission to the one who is calling them. “I must DECREASE that He may increase . . .” The Pharisees were convinced they were a superior race all together, which “may” be why later in centuries, the tables would be turned and they would be tortured and murdered by another race of people who felt they were “cleansing” the world from a substandard race through Hitler and his regime.

To see someone else get the inheritance that they were convinced was for them and only them would throw them into great turmoil . . .if you read Acts, when they stoned Stephen, he enraged them so much that it literally says they “gnashed their teeth” as they stoned him.

Outer darkness speaks of excommunication, lifelessness and absence of knowledge. And again, they saw themselves as the ONLY class of people who obtained the knowledge about God. That’s why they jumped Jesus about “by who’s authority do you say these things . . .” Because according to the scribes and Pharisees, “they” were the ONLY authority that existed. It was the “self” in them that brought about the implosion of A.D. 70 where the entire religious system was brought down to rubble, never to be rebuilt again . . .no matter how many Christians out there believe other wise. The temple represented the old religious system, not the new. And what God has brought down, no man will raise up again. Jesus is the New Covenant system, there’s no way God is going to allow men to rebuild the old religious system again. If they did, they’d be saying that Jesus isn’t “the” ultimate sacrifice.

#9

Mt. 13:41 is interesting. Note that poiew (do) is a participle, a verb that can be understood/used as a noun. If we understand it this way what is being separated is good and bad actions, attitudes, and beliefs.

“The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that offends and all workings of iniquity, and will cast it into the blazing furnace. There will be weeping and grinding of teeth. At that time the just will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.”

Jesus is purifying His Kingdom. And when He purifies it, there will be weeping and grinding of teeth. This passage seems to speak to me of much more than the destruction of Jerusalem, but of the judgment of all humanity. At that time everything we’ve done will be weighed, the good purified and the evil burnt up. And the “just”, those who have lived their lives in justice, shall shine like the sun! Those who have not lived justly shall not shine so brightly because their lives were consumed in evil.

In Mt.13:36-43 Jesus is explaining the parable of the Tares. And in reality we all have some good and some bad working in our lives, good attitudes, beliefs, and actions, and bad attitudes, beliefs, and actions. On that day everything will be revealed and the bad will be burnt up.

I don’t see anything in the literary context that would indicate that this series of parables was intended to warn about the coming destruction of Jerusalem. Rather it seems to me that Jesus was warning about right living in the present, having a right heart receptive to the word of God, and being watchful to get sin out of our lives. The reason Jesus spoke in parables was so that people could remember the story, ponder it, and hopefully hear God speak to them concerning their lives, moving them to repentance. Stories are powerful means of communicating truth and can effectively touch and appeal to both reason and emotion!

#10

Mt. 8:13 is a different story though. Jesus is amazed at the faith of the Centurion, and says:

10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

This passage could very well be speaking of the Kingdom of God breaking forth out of its Jewish territory and ultimately including people all over the world! And of course it’s a chastizement to the Jews, saying that though they should be the ones participating in the kingdom, they’ll be cast out into darkness, separated from the fire, light, and warmth of fellowship and belonging, where there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth. And the Jews sure have been through the ringer ever since the fall of Jerusalem, much weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Of course, it could also be applied to us today, that if though we consider ourselves children of God, if we live without truly obedient trust in God, then we too shall fell cast out and weep and gnash our teeth.

The more I study Jesus’ teaching techniques, the more it seems to me that He spoke in such a way so as to communicate multiple messages through one story. It’s as if these parables are like diamonds that refract the light into various colors and hues. These parables speak to His 1st century audience and today’s 21 century audience, calling us all to justice, mercy, and forgiveness so that we may participate in the love, joy, and wholeness of His Kingdom, today and to-come! Hallelujah!

#11

I’d take it a step further and say the entire bible is such that there are many messages. Height, width, depth, and breadth

#12

Yes and amen, I believe God is showing many people the same thing but each individual may tag it with a different label. diamonds, many stories inside of one story . . .I see it as dimensional and it’s just as we’re saying here. On one level, it’s speaking directly to those to whom “he” is speaking to in that it’s about Jews being isolated outside the kingdom as it’s offered to the Gentile nations. On another level, it’s pertaining to the religious church who embrace traditions of men that then become belligerent toward others who pursue life over the laws of death. And yet another dimension “within” each of us that shows how our flesh, our carnality in us wreaks havoc against what the spirit is illuminating to our spirit.

Much like the dimensions in the tabernacle patterned after Christ is in dimensions each divided by literal veils, so there are veils that divide and define one level of truth from another in the kingdom of God.

#13

So “IF” it is true that Jesus meant to communicate multiple messages through the parables, then to restrict them to one message is to misuse the parable and to restrict it’s power to bring about the kingdom of God in our personal lives, families, communities, and churches.

#14

You nailed it. I dont understand what some may mean by diamonds and maning meanings, because all that does is create confussion. During the days of Paul, most believers never had the advantage of reading the four gosples as we do, so their beliefs were simplified. I fear even most of us UR’s still hold onto church folk traditions and teachings to help them learn, when in fact it still creates confusion. Speaking from experience, I have untaught myself all things taught by pastors, priests and ministers to start fresh to learn His real word. I find it works well for me.

#15

Okay guys, you all lost me. :laughing: :cry:

#16

Really? You don’t think Jesus ever said one thing, but meant something completely different? You don’t think his message brought confusion? How about "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees . … " just to name one . . . they didn’t have a clue what he was talking about . . .what about his intent to speak ONLY in parables??? They even pulled him aside and tried to get him to just come out and say what he meant. Even in Galatians when Paul wrote about being born of a free woman in the promise which was what Sarah, Abraham’s wife represented, or being born of a woman who was a “servant” to another . . . that one isn’t in the gospels. Everything Jesus said and did had deeper meanings . . . there’s way more to ALL stories in Scripture than the stories themselves. That’s why Paul refers to them as “mysteries”. The plan of salvation may be simplistic in nature, but the nature of God himself is way beyond the comprehension of any rational man could ever imagine.

If the Word “was” God . . .and God is dimensional, then why would Scripture be any different? Natural . . .moral . . .spiritual. Mankind . . .the church within man kind, “I” as an individual within the church . . .the patterns are the same, but they are infinite.

#17

I believe the words He spoke were of a spiritual message, and when He spoke of a something as by a parable, it was meant to teach of one meaning, not two or more meanings. I dont claim to understand all His teachings to His diciples and His messages to the religiouse leaders, but I am learning with time, and it is slowly starting to make sense to me. If His parables for example have more than one meaning, then how do you narrow down the correct meanings out of 1000’s of interpretations? Take the parable of the richman and Lazerus for example. There can be for me no doubt in my mind of what it was meant for, and there is no doubt that there is only one meaning for it in my opinion. If there are more than one meaning in any of His teachings, please feel free to show me. I am grateful when I am proven wrong about my beliefs in His words. This brings me closer to the truth of His words.

#18

Well, for starters, it’s not really about proving who’s wrong or right, but merely sharing with what is being seen and possible seed planting in the mean time.

Rich man and Lazarus.
1st dimension, the story itself. 1st dimensional is also aimed at general population. The “historical” value to what’s being said. Which already could raise a few eyebrows on this particular story due to the idea that many believe, and I myself also lean towards the fact that this particular story wasn’t a real story that actually transpired in the first place, but instead, it was a well known . . .what we’d call a fairy tale I guess . . .but it was a well known one that everyone knew well. But rather than get caught up in the confusion of that part of it, the “literal” piece here is the fact that Jesus was “literally” referring to physical Pharisees and their attitude and piousness against Gentiles. It’s the “tangible” element of the story.

Second dimension was the moral which is aimed at religious believers “within” the general population. It’s a gradual condensation . . .kinda like a funnel. The beginning is very broad, then it starts to narrow down . . .goes from general population to the church “in” the population. In this case it’s pertaining to pride and humility . . .the rich depicting the proud, the poor depicting the humble . . .the demeanor of the poor was very humble, just as the demeanor of the rich guy was very proudful. Thus, the “moral” element of the story.

The third is always the closest to home . . it’s always the spiritual . .the “inward”. “In me” there is a rich man and “in me” there is a Lazarus . . .the third is the one that carries the greatest impact . . .the spirit is what we’re called to walk in . . .above the flesh. The flesh pertains to the moral and tangible part of our nature. Rely “not” on your own understanding . . .flesh profiteth nothing . . .on and on . . .but the spirit . . .that’s where life is. That’s where relationship is. That’s where truth and light are . . .Jesus is that spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is . .there is LIBERTY.

You don’t get that by just embracing one dimension of a story.

My favorite is seeing David and Goliath in this same pattern . . .very powerful . . .but I’m out of time for today.

#19

That can be one way of looking at it, but as Christ said in John 6:63. His words are spirit and life. So to me, Lazerus, which means in Greek “who God helps” is poor (without God’s blessings and is at that time, seperated from God Eph 2) as the richman is Judea and its religiouse system who hated the gentiles and would not share with them the word of God, just as I believe that they are also the servent who hid his golden coin as written in Matt 25:24-28. When the richman died, his death was also symbolic. It meant the total seperation from God as written in Dan 8. This death in my opinion is the second death as written in Revelations 4 times. Lazerus is next Abraham is symbolic for God’s promise to Abraham that He would bless all nations. We are now in the age of the gentiles, and when that is fullfilled, we will all enjoy the great family reunion with our one and only Father in Heaven.

I could go on with this topic further if anyone is interested.

#20

Originally you stated you felt there is only “one” message to take away in Scripture, my point was to present to you that there are several ways you can understand it . . one of more importance than the others, which is spiritually receiving the revelation of it’s truth, but nonetheless, there is more than just one approach to any verse in Scripture. Then in your opening response, you stated that yeah, that’s one way to see it . . .which then totally contradicted your original remark.

While I agree that Jesus “is” spirit and everything he said and did had spiritual significance that was much greater than the natural act or word itself, but then your rendition of what you take away from the story goes into a literal interpretation rather than a spiritual one. For me, to see it spiritually is to see it “inwardly” There is a Lazarus “in” me and a rich man “in” me. one is depicting my spirit man, the other is depicting my carnal man.

Every story can be seen this way. There is an Adam in me, there is an Eve in me . . .and . .there is a serpent nature that can deceive my Eve, I believe "that’ is what Jesus was addressing when he told Peter to get behind him . . .as well as when he was being “tempted” in the garden . . it was all an inward experience and conversation rather than a literal outward event unfolding there… . there is a carnal nature at work in me to deceive my mind and my Eve will always desire after my Adam, My mind will always want to have dominance over my spirit. But my Adam is to rule over my Eve . . .my Spirit is where the authority lies.

That’s why when Eve ate of the fruit . .nothing happened until she fed it to Adam and he ate it. First, it was forbidden fruit, he disobeyed. Second, it was from the tree of knowledge . . .KNOWLEDGE was never to be embraced and consumed. It had it’s purpose and place in the garden, it brought balance, but it was never intended for man’s consumption. Third, he received it from his Eve . . .Spirit is to ALWAYS feed flesh, never the other way around. And thus, the original alignment God established in man became out of order. As a result of choosing knowledge over life, they could no longer live in the garden because the garden was not a natural place . . .they were created from the natural earth then “placed” in the garden. But when they chose knowledge over life and allowed the mind to dominate the spirit, they were then removed from the spirit realm and returned back to the earth from which they were originally made.

When I let my head lead my heart, I confine myself to the influence and dominance of the laws of knowledge. Even though this world is not my home, I’m in bondage in it due to the fact that I allow my mind to make my spiritual decisions for me. That’s what the resurrection of Christ was all about. My Spirit is resurrected from that bondage of my mind and it 's returned to the throne “in” me as I am a temple and there is only one throne . . .only one ruler in me . . .either it’s my mind, or my spirit. Many will claim they are led by the spirit but in reality, it’s the mind that’s doing the leading and there’s never a good ending, which is the evidence as to whether it’s really spiritual or not. If life abounds, it’s spirit. If it’s all about control and confinement it’s flesh.