The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Where does Bible say saving is more glorious than punishing?

Theology Biblical Theology
#1

I’ve been having an interesting dialogue about if saving is more glorious than punishing (satisfying justice, etc.)? (If it is, than that makes a very strong argument against ECT as Christians usually want God to get the most glory, not settle with 2nd best, particularly if He’s sovereign in a Calvinistic sense - be that compatibilism or more :sunglasses: )

To me it seems intuitively obvious, however I want lots of Bible verses before I use it too much… :stuck_out_tongue:

I thought this implicitly implied it, but the problem was he simply said the new covenant/ministry brings both life and death (see 2 Cor 2:16) :confused: Doh! :wink:

#2

to turn it round a bit, i’m more concerned about what they think God’s glory is, and exactly how it will be enhanced by wrath, if those punished are punished hopelessly. exactly what Scripture supports that view of something we have to define as God’s reputation for being good?

#3

I’m having a little problem with this issue myself. John Piper says that God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in Him . He gets this from Johnathan Edwards but I haven’t found it in scripture. Plausibility is in the mind of the beholder. If those in hell have their hearts separated from the Spirit it’s going to get harder over time. The longer in hell the more evil they become the more just God’s punishment is of them and the brighter the glory of justice will shine. But it does seem to me that God would be most glorified if all are most satisfied in Him. Cant figure it out. I do know whichever view gives God the most glory is the true view.

I did find this:

Conclusion

“God is most glorified when” is a phrase and a concept God has purposely chosen not to reveal to us in the pages of scripture. Dr. Piper’s expression is not only unbiblical and illogical, it is speculative and therefore dangerous. Used as a creed it becomes a “precept of men” which God hates (Hosea 5:11, Isaiah 29:13, Jeremiah 8:6-9, Matthew 15:9, Mark 7:7, Colossians 2:22, Titus 1:14). When taught to our impressionable children, as if it were somehow a quote from the Bible, we impose on our children the leaven of the Pharisees (Matthew 16:12) who Christ vehemently condemned because they taught “the precepts of men” as if they were also scripture (Matthew 15:9).

http://www.thefaithfulword.org/mostglorifiedwhen.html

#4

This sounds like it’s saying mercy is more glorious:

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Triumph here means to exult over.(feel or show triumphant elation or jubilation)

“Got Questions” says this as well:

This brings us to the final statement of James 2:13, “Mercy triumphs over judgment.” The idea is that mercy “glories” or “boasts” against judgment, knowing that, where mercy and judgment seem to conflict, mercy wins. The good news for every child of God in Christ is that God’s mercy toward us will triumph over His judgment of us (see Romans 8:1). Our sins may argue against us, but Christ is our loving Advocate who argues for us and prevents us from receiving the judgment we deserve. We, in turn, display God’s type of mercy toward others.

https://www.gotquestions.org/mercy-triumphs-over-judgment.html

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#5

Maybe God manifests the glory of His infinite justice by punishing Satan and His angels forever. All humanity would be saved. Therefore God would receive more glory than if only a few were saved. Human universalism would be the preferred view because God is most glorified.

Edit:

God would even be more glorified if there were fallen angels saved and Satan, the beast, and false prophet were punished forever. This view gives God the most glory. There’s even a translation that goes like this:

King James 2000 Bible
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are (or were), and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.

American King James Version
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are (or were), and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So, it’s only Satan that is punished forever. This gives God the most glory out of all the views and His justice would shine forever. And things visible and invisible would be reconciled. All things is a reference to the new heavens and earth. The lake of fire isn’t included in that. You must enter the gates to become new or part of the all things made new. The dead become new. Or it could be that the three are tormented forever. They are known as the unholy trinity.

Edit

I found an article on NT Wright’s view of hell. He’s not a universalist but It could also be that the remains of the old self are left behind. The Devil will be tormented forever but lucifer is reborn. The same with resurrected wicked. They receive a new self and new incorruptible body after being reborn in hell. Their remains are left behind along with their old identity (old self). God gives them a new name and identity after being reborn. Both body and soul are punished forever. God would be most glorified and mercy would triumph over judgment. All would glorify God for His mercy.

Here’s Thayer’s Greek Lexicon on the word “Triumph” in the passage “mercy triumphs over judgment”.

To glory against, to exult over…Mercy boasts itself superior to judgment

So, Mercy is more glorious than judgment

#6

I think one of Jesus titles , I believe is “Savior of the world” 1st Tim 2 & that is his title like “Lord of Lords” so are his titles conditional based on man’s response or are they unconditional based on God’s sovereignty? So Jesus titles are glorious titles given by God and he will judge us but I believe to lead us into salvation.

#7

God is glorified not only by his glory’s being seen, but by its being rejoiced in. When those that see it delight in it, God is more glorified than if they only see it. God made the world that he might communicate, and the creature receive, his glory . . . both with the mind and the heart. He that testifies his having an idea of God’s glory doesn’t glorify God so much as he that testifies also his approbation i.e., his heartfelt commendation or praise of it and his delight in it. ~~ Jonathan Edwards

#8

This sounds like it:

‘The steadfast love of the LORD never ceases, his mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is thy faithfulness.’

vs

‘For the Lord will not cast off for ever, but, though he cause grief, he will have compassion according to the abundance of his steadfast love; for he does not willingly afflict or grieve the sons of men.’

#9

About God’s infinite justice. To God a ‘Day" is as a “Thousand years” and a “Thousand years” are as a “Day.” A “Thousand Years” and “Day” aren’t literal here. This is why the Bible tells us that Jonah was in the belly of a whale for 3 days yet the text says He was there forever. Likewise Christs atonement is eternal yet He was resurrected. The justice can be eternal yet come to an end. It’s relative. Either way we have infinite justice manifested. The sum total remains the same if those in hell suffer an infinite degree for a finite period of time rather than a finite degree for infinite time. Again a thousand years to God is like a day. So, it could be infinite degree of suffering for finite time. Given those in hell have new bodies in a transdimensional reality they are able to experience an infinite degree of suffering for a finite time. God’s justice would indeed be awful making His mercy shine all the brighter. Moreover justice would come to an end and therefore, justice would be served. It’s never served if people suffer an infinite stretch of time.