I tend to have an N.T. Wright-esque understanding of eschatology, (i.e. this earth and heavens being remade to be our eternal home in the resurrection), but I’m confused where hell could be located in this picture. Is there a “new Gehenna” outside the New Jerusalem? How would this fit with universalism?
It’s entirely possible to believe that this earth and heavens will be and are being remade to be our eternal home in the resurrection (in effect a resurrection of the heavens and the earth) without subscribing to NTW’s preterist understanding of eschatology–the former is actually pretty traditional in scholarly Christian history, while the latter (taken to the extent NTW does) is rather more radical.
If I recall correctly, NTW is an annihilationist; but whether he is or not, they don’t have to have a “new Gehenna/hades” outside the New Jerusalem. (They could, with annihilation to follow later after a period of resurrection torment/punishment.) ECT and purgatorial universalistic proponents (such as myself) regard the lake of fire, whatever else that actually involves, as representing the new Gehenna (or for ECTers who propose the condemned being sequestered off in another pocket dimension, a new hades, too). Gehenna operates now in hades, insofar as souls are conscious (there may be some soul sleep involved), and will continue to do so where appropriate in the lake of fire judgment.
Whether this means those still in the lake of fire judgment are physically outside the gates of a physical New Jerusalem, I don’t know (although I wouldn’t bet against it, as prophecies do have a habit of coming more literally true than might have been expected), but they’re at least figuratively outside the group of those loyal to God, which “the Bride” and “the New Jerusalem” both represent (with the NJ also being specifically equated with the Bride in RevJohn). One way or another there is contact between them and the Bride, who is cooperating with her Husband and with the Spirit in continuing to evangelize them in, depending on whether that’s the proper interpretation of the end of RevJohn (and I do draw that conclusion currently).
Ultra-universalists, who don’t believe in any post-mortem punishment per se (and who also tend to be preterists), regard the lake of fire as being mostly or entirely a description of process, more or less instantaneous, much as the annihilationists do, not (also) a description of a state of existence. (ECT proponents by contrast uniformly regard the LoF as only a state of existence, not of process, or at least of no significant process. Purga-u’s such as myself tend to recognize it as both a state of existence and as a process–I think this does more justice to more data, portions of which inform both those who regard it only as a state of existence and also those who regard it as only a process.)
As my ‘teacher’ Lewis used to say (and illustrated colorfully in The Great Divorce, a heaven and a hell can easily exist in close connection and conjunction with one another, even if hell (and in Lewis’ account also heaven, ultimately) wants and at last gets a divorce.
As you likely know, Gehenna would better be translated as Ben-Hinnom Valley, or shorter, Hinnom Valley. It’s SSE of Jerusalem, SSW of the Mt. Zion and is more like a ravine than a valley. Gehenna is a transliteration of the Hebrew name for the site, Ga Hinnom. It is very sad that English translations mistranslate Gehenna as Hell. Hinnom Valley was where Israel errected the idol Molech, with the head of a bull, torso of a man, and a belly that was a furnace where children were sacrificed to the idol. Even now though, Hinnom Valley is not a bad place, much less in the world to come.
panoramio.com/photo/2117585 - a current picture of Hinnom Valley
Best answer so far Sherman. The use of Gehenna is symbolic for the coming judgment and wrath of God on Judah. What many dont know is that back in the days of Israel, Religiouse leaders such as Scribes and their inforcers of the law (Pharisees) alond with the royals made their burial plans in Hebron where it was or still is believed that Abraham is resting. It was concidered a place of honour to be buried there. Now comes a man named Jesus of Nazereth telling them that their burial site will be in a place where garbage and common criminals will be dumped, and that is exactly what happened AD70.
Jason:
If you wouldn’t mind, I just had a couple quick questions about what you’re saying.
So… you would say that the Lake of Fire/Gehenna/Hell is most likely a physical, new Gehenna in the new Earth? the new Jerusalem’s gates would be just outside it, which is the biggest reason it strikes me as a likely interpretation. The river that flows out of the heavenly city would then flow towards the new Gehenna, and the leaves of the trees are healing for those in Gehenna?
When the end of Revelation speaks about kings bringing their glory into the New Jerusalem, and those leaves being “healing for the nations,” why is the focus so national? Other verses about Gehenna in this portion of the book seem very personal, but why are these more national in their language? (e.g. "The one who conquers will have this heritage, and rI will be his God and she will be my son. 8 tBut as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, utheir portion will be in vthe lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is wthe second death.” is very personal language). Are entire nations possibly grouped here into one individual? this could be fitting in reference to nations like Tyre and Sodom being condemned as nations in the OT.
The strangest part to swallow about there being a “new Gehenna” for me is that when John sees “a new heavens and a new earth,” he would not be seeing an* entirely* perfected creation yet. Though I suppose that since God chose to work through Israel to* bring* healing to the nations in this world, it would only be fitting that he would do the same in the next (with the New Israel).
Forgive me, I’m sorting out thoughts on here. If you have any answers, comments, objections, etc. I’d love any interjections.
Thanks so much,
Chris
Hi Chris,
The lake of fire is different than Hinnom Valley (Gehenna), and neither should be translated as Hell. The Greek text actually calls it “the lake of the fire and the brimstone”. There is a lake in Israel, near Jerusalem that was closely assosiated with fire, brimstone, and the judgment of God - the Dead Sea. On the West bank of the Dead Sea are the ash remains of Sodom and Gomorrah and the other three cities that were destroyed by fire and brimstone. The Dead Sea is located on a fault line and thus has over the centuries seen significant geological activity, particularly asphault that bubbles up from under the water. It is associated with death and destruction. And John says that it is symbolic of the second death. Scripture speaks of two different types of death, one being physical death that we shall all face. Another death that is spoken of in scripture is our death to self. Elsewhere Paul says that he turned over a brother to Satan for the destruction of his flesh so that his spirit might be saved. And of course Jesus said that those who loose their life shall find it. And personally, I have experienced how facing the judgment of God brings about an end, the death of selfishness, evil in me.
In short, my point is that Gehenna should be translated as Hinnom Valley and Revelation’s “lake of fire” likely references the Dead Sea, both of which are pictures of God’s judgment of and destruction of evil. And neither should be understood as affirming a place of endless conscious torment, Hell. But of course, tradition is difficult to rethink.
I meant a physical state more than a physical place–I know what Sherman is saying about the “lake of fire” representing (or being represented by) the Dead Sea, but in Temple typology I think it refers more specifically to the basin in which sacrifices were washed clean before being offered to God. Neither one of those fits the situation very literally, but they’re representative of various concepts. Similarly, Gehenna is ‘near’ Jerusalem, not sequestered off differently somewhere; and Christians (at least) were expected to minister to the sick and outcast who lived there.
(Sherman’s point about the river of life flowing into the Dead Sea to heal it after the lake of fire judgment, is a very important detail from Ezekiel by the way, although Ezeke doesn’t specifiy the Dead Sea exactly–it fits the description as the closest salt body of water in that direction, but two much larger bodies of salt water connected to all seas on Earth are off in that direction, too, across deserts–and Ezekiel seems to put this as happening during the millennium. Probably it literally happens to the Dead Sea in the millennium reign, per Ezekiel, and then is extended to all salt water bodies literally after the lake of fire judgment when there will be no more sea, but either way it’s emblematic of spiritual redemption, the latter being more totally extensive than the first.)
The salient point is that wherever those suffering the lake of fire judgment exist, they do exist physically (having had a bodily resurrection) in a state that can be described analogically with the lake-of-fire imagery (also with Gehenna imagery), within evangelical reach of those who live in the state of existence represented by the New Jerusalem. That may be literally nearby outside the gates of a literal New Jerusalem, too, but not necessarily.
Such distinctions are (almost) always represented by national differences in Biblical imagery. The new peace of YHWH over here (emblematic of the Church), all other nations over there coming into it. “Nations” in Biblical parlance basically means “pagans”, or those who aren’t doctrinally pure Jews at least since God-fearers in the nations were recognized, too. Kings are expected to lead their nations to loyal worship of YHWH in the millennium, and this continues with extensions to the previously slain “kings of nations” (the worst human rebels against Christ) during the lake of fire judgment, but it refers to conversions of non-Christians to Christianity either way. (Although in the millennium the conversion may be somewhat shallow even where honest, or Satan wouldn’t be represented as very successfully instigating one final rebellion before the general resurrection and lake of fire judgment.)
Notice also that the New Jerusalem is also described in those RevJohn chapters as the Bride of Christ, which is a very personal description.
If you’re talking about the first verses of Rev 21, those must be some kind of flashforward to the final result in any case, because John goes on immediately afterward to talk about portions of God’s creation (namely persons) which are still rebellious and therefore unperfected. But the New Jerusalem is on the way to help them. 
(Even though they still can’t enter the NJ, the Bride of Christ, without repentance.)
John is shown some similar flashforwards of the final results back in earlier chapters, too, right before continuing with his visions of the various stages of final rebellions.