I was under the impression Revelation describes there being a Lake of Fire just outside the gates but now I’m not sure about that… 
Is it fair to combine these to verses supports my proposition?
that seems fairly clear? i haven’t really studied it (more ultra u than purga u, me, though i like the picture Robin gives us in tEU of the gates not being shut and the nations filing in, being healed as they eat the fruit on the way in.)
what is making you doubt if those verses seems so clear?
Hi Alex
Interesting question. Now I look at this issue more closely, I think the weak link is the word ‘just’ which I now doubt is substantiated by the text.
I suppose, all the text is saying is that the lake of fire is definitely not inside this wonderful city - it could be anywhere outside the city.
Craig thankfully asked me where I got the idea from 
Yes, I think you’re right about both points, so I’ll remove the word “just” from my letter.
Agreed with Pilgrim, although I suspect the implication that it’s relatively near is derived from the image of the river of life flowing out of the city, which those who still fondle their sins are being invited to slake their thirst and wash in.
In another sense however the New Jerusalem must be very close (maybe even physically), if the NJ is a poetic representation of the Bride of Christ, i.e. represents the Church: because the Bride is evangelizing those outside the NJ, which involves some significant proximity!
Similarly if the lake of fire represents the Holy Spirit in a particular mode of action, Bride and the rebels are united in proximity of the Holy Spirit, since the Spirit and the Bride are both evangelizing the rebels.
I somewhat doubt, however, the ones who are lost are all that physically close to a physical New Jerusalem (if there’s any such thing by this point in the story), unless they’re being kept imprisoned within what’s now known as the Dead Sea (which is where the river of life is immediately flowing down toward in the Ezekiel passages this vision occasionally references), or the DS acts as a physical connection to some extra-dimensional prison. But even then that’s only ‘just outside the gates’ in proportion to being anywhere else on the planet. (And the implication seems to be that the river heals the DS first and then goes on out to every other salt-water body on the planet, so that by this time in the story there is no more ocean in the sense of dangerous expanses of water poisonous to humanity.)
How much of that is literal, and/or will be literally representing other things going on, who knows? Christ’s death turned out to be far more literally true than anyone was really expecting.
Update: Davo has a good point, too, next – I had totally forgotten the connection of Gehenna to the LoF. The river in Ezekiel seems to be flowing through Hinnom in order to get to the DS anyway, because it comes out from under the Temple (i.e. from Christ in RevJohn’s imagery since Christ Himself is their Temple.)
Update 2: and RHM below, yep, in the presence of the saints has to mean proximity to the NJ one way or another.
When you understand the Lake of Fire in terms of Jesus’ “Gehenna” then “just outside the gates” historically speaking would indeed make sense, and thus relate as a metaphor to the ever-burning worm-crawling refuge heap off Jerusalem’s southern wall, with Jesus’ metaphoric use pointing to the forth coming conflagrations of AD70 where Jerusalem and her Temple set fully ablaze being indicative of a sea or lake of fire.
The smoke of their torment goes up in the presence of the lamb and saints, so I’d say the LOF is very near the NJ. His ministers are made flames of fire too, so…
irrelevant, but kept reading NJ as New Joisey lol
This forum is awesome! Thanks everyone! I’ll add the info to my footnote 
Avoiding the burning garbage dump joke. Avoiding the burning garbage dump joke. AVOIDING THE BURNING GARBAGE DUMP JOKE!!!
Or it could be that the lake of fire is in the throne room of God . . .
Although I tend to agree (and have argued this extensively myself), I didn’t bring that up because it’s a bit more controversial and requires more argument to work out than Alex could have available.
It does show, as a flashforward, people coming out from the number of the beast, and out from the worship of the beast, overcoming their sin to stand upon the sea of fire though.
It is possible, likely imo, that the lake of fire is a reference to the Dead Sea. It is only 10-12 miles SE of Jerusalem, as the crow flies. The Greeks called it Lake Asphaltites. On the West bank of the Dead Sea are the ruins of the 5 cities (Sodom & Gomorrah + 3) destroyed by fire and brimstone. The ash remains are still there with buildings, walls, streets, and zigurats readily identifiable though now solid ash. Within the ash remains are balls of sulfur with a trace of magnesium in it which made for an extremely hot burn. Some of the ash is swirls which takes over 6000 degrees F to produce. It was apparently once a vibrant lake that supported the 5 cities on its bank, but underwent a cataclysmic change when sulfur shot out from it’s depths and rained down on the cities, burning them up in judgment. Brad Jersak indicates that the phrase “2nd death” in Revelation actually speaks of the ash remains of bodies burnt up in Hinnom Valey washing down into the Dead Sea. I’ve ordered his book and look forward to seeing what support he has for that.
Anyhow, the Revelation Greek text actually calls it “the lake of the fire and the brimstone”. It was/is a place related to judgment close to Jerusalem. And I know of no other location that would have spoken nearly as prophetically of judgment than the Dead Sea.
The more I’ve pondered the lake of fire and brimstone, the more I think it is referencing the Dead Sea.
Hell is in the Center of the Earth
“They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them” – Numbers 16
“When I shall bring thee down with them that descend into the pit, with the people of old time, and shall set thee in the low parts of the earth, in places desolate of old, with them that go down to the pit” – Ezekiel 26
“I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever” – Jonah 2
“Hell from beneath” – Isaiah 14
“To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth” – Lamentations 3
“Patients who described hell (near death experiences) said, “The place seems to be underground or within the earth in some way” – Dr. Maurice Rawlings – From the book Beyond Death’s Door
“I somehow knew I was in the lower part of the earth. I remember thinking, most people up on earth’s surface have no idea that there’s a whole world going on down here below the surface” – Bill Wiese – From the Book 23 Minutes in Hell
Map of Hell. Earth’s Core
feardeathandhell.com/wp-content/ … _earth.jpg
This verse is speaking of an earthquake. The earth splits open, a fault; people fell in and then the faulth closed. The passage does not speak of Hell, but of dying in an earth quake.
The passage speaks of death, the pit is a reference to the grave. It does not speak of Hell or ECT.
Jonah drowned and the “bars of the earth” was a referece to death and the grave. It also says that he was in Sheol, 2.2, and from Sheol (the realm of the dead) he cried out to God and God heard him and restored him to life. It this is literal, which I believe it is, then this passage is actually evidence of post-mortem repentance and salvation.
The word is actually “Sheol” which means grave or realm of the dead. It does not mean Hell. Most English translations correct this mistranslation in the KJV as in the ESV quote below which transliterated Sheol.
Is.14.9 ESV
Sheol beneath is stirred up
to meet you when you come;
it rouses the shades to greet you,
all who were leaders of the earth;
it raises from their thrones
all who were kings of the nations.
It is very sad that you pull phrases out of context and imply that they mean something different than what they do. And this is one of the most amazing passages where you do do. The passage actually affirms that The Lord “will not cast off forever” anyone, but that He will have compassion on people according to his stedfast love. He then goes on to say that the Lord “does not approve” of those who “crush underfoot all the prisoners of the earth”. God does not approve of those who oppress others who are in any type of bondage (prisoners of the earth). It’s amazing what a passage says when you take it in context.
31 For the Lord will not
cast off forever,
32 but, though he cause grief, he will have compassion
according to the abundance of his steadfast love;
33 for he does not afflict from his heart
or grieve the children of men.
34 To crush underfoot
all the prisoners of the earth,
35 to deny a man justice
in the presence of the Most High,
36 to subvert a man in his lawsuit,
the Lord does not approve.
It’s interesting that many people who have had visions, dreams, or spiritual experiences of “Hell”, end up being saved, even unbelievers. I believe that what they are experiencing is a dramatic revelation of what Paul calls “this present evil age” (Gal.1.4). In this present evil age people are consumed by evil from within and without as if by fire. They are under the oppression of demonic forces of darkness, slaves of unrighteousness, dead in their sins, slaves in the kingdom of darkness, etc. - this “present evil age”. It is not a picture of the “Hell to come someday”, but the “present evil age of today” that Jesus saves us from.
It is so very important to study what scripture actually affirms and to not just yank passages, even phrases, from scripture and misuse them to affirm something that the passage doesn’t affirm. 2 Tim. 2:15
Great discussion. There was a time I advocated that the lake of fire existed figuratively outside of NJ. (at least I did tentatively) Certainly verses 21:27 and 22:15 seem to clearly imply this to be the case.
However I now believe it is an assumption to think John is referring to a time element here.
As Jim Coram remarks
Considering we read “death will be no more, nor mourning, nor clamor, nor misery” I am not sure being “outside the city” could be physically true for unbelievers since this would of necessity involve death, mourning, and misery.
It does however follow that if they are being evangelized outside the holy city (and still fondling their sins for that matter), then they’re still alive in some way outside the holy city and in significant evangelical contact with those who live in the holy city.
Which fits neither hopeless conscious torment, nor annihilation.
(That being said, as noted above, the NJ itself need not necessarily be a literal city. The imagery tends to indicate the NJ is the Church Triumphant, equivalent to the Bride. Still, too many prophecies have turned out to be literally, or also literally, true, for me to bet a literal city won’t be involved.)
And welcome to the forum, Puddy! (Not to be confused I suppose with our other recently returned ‘Puddy’…?)
Just not sure where they are said to be evangelized? No doubt Israel will be a blessing to the nations, and it is probably true that generations of new born will continue (Eph. 3.21), so I can see the need for teaching humanity about spiritual things. There will be Kings and nations living outside the NJ, but the gates to the city will not be locked. If there is to be no death in the new earth, then it would seem the only option remaining for the prior unbelieving is to be already dead. --PR
-Ya, it is still the old Puddy unfortunately. I tried to change my email, and somehow got shut out of the system, under my old name. Now that is a scary thought for some of you. Two Puddy’s!
Anyway, the first verses of Rev. 21, just seem to preclude any thought of unbelievers going through a time of purging and misery in the new earth, since 21.4 says, mourning, clamor, misery, will be no more, and also since unbelievers have no license to the tree of life, how will they keep themselves alive? Now I am open to changing my mind on some of this, but for now I take the less imaginative view.
Note: our accounts are connected to our emails, so changing our emails tends to scotch the accounts.
I’ll try tagging [tag]Alex Smith[/tag] (our resident super-admin) and see if he can help.
Rev 22:14-17. Outside are those who were previously described as being outside the city (such as at 21:8), still fondling their sins. The Spirit and the Bride encourage them to slake their thirst and wash their robes in the water of life which freely flows without cost out of the city, thus obtaining permission to enter the city and eat of the tree (more literally the log) of life and be healed by its leaves. The one who does wrong and who is filthy is allowed to stay that way, but that isn’t going to stop the ones who are holy and righteous from continuing to be holy and righteous; and the practice of righteousness includes evangelizing the unrighteous to repent of their sins, accept Christ, and become righteous themselves.
Or they’ve been dead and have been resurrected and won’t be put to death again, yet the end goal is still for all evil to pass away, too.
Neither ECT nor anni fits both those qualifications.
John has a tendency to flashforward to explain where the things he is about to relate are headed.
It is God Who keeps them and anyone else alive, whether they have permission to enter the city yet or not. If lack of access to the tree of life meant annihilation, the Bride and the Holy Spirit would be deluding themselves to go out (before or after the lake of fire judgment either one) to encourage those who don’t have access yet to drink of the water of life and so obtain permission to enter the city and eat of the tree of life, because no one would be out there to evangelize in the first place!
I would say the less imaginative view is the one that doesn’t require the Holy Spirit and the Church to be imagining such persons still exist outside the city to obtain permission to enter the city and eat of the tree of life. 
For that matter, any theory which involves exclusion from the tree of life necessarily entailing annihilation, will be unable to explain the existence of any currently unredeemed sinner from our first sinning ancestors on down!