The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Which denomination would honour God more—a Calvinist one or

Hi, I’m new here.

I’ve believed in evangelical universalism for a few years now, but have not read all that widely on it. I’m only now starting to do so.

I go to a reformed church but am not comfortable there considering their view on salvation. I don’t know what other church/denomination to go to, though. I am thinking about United Methodism, if only for the reason that (being Arminians) their view of God (as all loving and all forgiving) is correct. But their view of limitations to God’s sovereignty doesn’t sit well with me. Nor does the fact that they believe only past sins have been forgiven (not present or future ones). This latter aspect might, though, be irrelevant in light of ultimate reconciliation.

I suppose what I’m really trying to work out is what would honour God more: an evangelical universalist going to a Calvinist church or to an Arminian church. Or doesn’t it really matter? (I assume, though, that the Calvinist view of God’s love being limited would certainly not honour him.)

Can any one advice me?

Hi there, (welcome to the forum by the way! :wink: )

There’s not really a right answer to this, I don’t think. There are some utterly wonderful, spirit-filled churches that are Arminian-like in their soteriology (I find that most Arminians don’t really say or even know that they’re Arminian) and it’s the same with other churches that hold to Calvinist views on salvation. There’s not one or the other that is ‘better’ to go to. You might say that Calvinism dishonours God due to its view on his love (although there are many Calvinist who will insist that God actually does love everyone, just that he only picks his elect to receive salvation) but then you could argue that Arminianism dishonours him because it shows him as giving up or quitting on saving some. And of course, we all certainly hold theological views that if they were true, would make God less honourable or good than he actually is.

Best answer would be to pray and ask God where he wants you to be and then try and listen to him. He doesn’t have to send you a miraculous sign, although he might do, but it could be something very simple like it being more practical to go a particular church or it could be that you feel more at home in one church or that you just feel called to one church or whatever.

I’m sure you’ll get some people praying for you on here as well if you want it :slight_smile:

Welcome, Amos!

I grew up in the UMC, though I confess I don’t remember much about the sermons. I do remember this, though: the UMC has (or at least did have; don’t know about currently) what they call an “open pulpit,” giving the ministers a wide swath of freedom in their preaching. I don’t remember every getting any teaching on hell at all until I “grew up” and switched on my own to the much more “exciting” AoG superchurch in our town. If I were to recommence going to a church, my first experiment would probably be with the UMC. Best of luck and most importantly, God’s blessings (of course!) in finding a church home. Oh, and feel free to introduce yourself further in our Intro section. The introductory topic doesn’t count in our “one topic per week” limit. We’d love to get to know you better.

Blessings, Cindy

Thanks Jonny and Cindy for your responses. You make some very good points.

I was at my church’s bible study group yesterday, and the topic of predestination of the elect came up, and a few people there expressed concern that members of their families were not saved. I wanted to blurt out that they are ultimately saved but was afraid to. Not because I would receive animosity (at least I would hope not) but that it would lead to a debate about ultimate reconciliation that I would not be confident in handling. They don’t know I believe in UR, by the way.

For me, this is one of the problems of being in such a church: not being able to reassure people there that their loved ones who aren’t Christians will be saved in the end. I feel that they need such reassurance, yet I’m unable to give it out of fear. The psychological damage that their belief in everlasting damnation is causing them is very apparent to me, yet I am helpless to comfort them. So given this helplessness, I would rather be in a church whose congregation at least only pays lip service to everlasting damnation, and who the majority of which probably secretly don’t really deep down believe it, and so are not going to be traumatised if their non-Christian family members aren’t “saved”.

From the little I know about modern Methodism, I assume they are fairly liberal minded on most things—perhaps too liberal some might say. I’m more of a conservative regarding Christianity, and believe in all its main doctrines, apart from its misunderstandings about salvation.

I suppose I need to make the choice between two very poor options: Reformed Christianity/Calvinism or Methodism/Arminianism. Both have their good points, but I’m trying to work out which of their bad points I can live with without dishonouring God—if that makes sense?

Incidentally, does anyone have any ideas why God has allowed this confusion about the nature of salvation to exist? My ill-informed guess is that he has done so purposely as some sort of “test” to root out those believers who really understand his all loving, all forgiving, and all sovereign nature. And that he is going to eventually reveal this aspect about himself to all Christian denominations.

Btw, sorry for the posting delay, Amos. All new members are automatically on automod until an ad/mod manually puts the post through, and we aren’t always watching 24/7. You should only need maybe another post before we’ve taught the system you aren’t a spambot, and then it’ll let you through automatically afterward. :slight_smile:

Re which soteriology branch honors God more: they each strongly honor God in some overlapping and in some contrasting ways, though the honor is handicapped by each branch denying the gospel assurance protected by the other branch. :frowning:

I suspect it depends on the congregation. How they behave in practice means more to me (and I expect to God) than what they believe or don’t believe in theory or in principle.

Though on the balance, I have a slight preference for Arminianism: while it inadvertently and somewhat regularly denies trinitarian Christian theism in its own ways, at least it doesn’t involve the Persons of God intentionally choosing to give final dishonor and blasphemy to each other by means of choosing not to save some sinners from sin even though They know They could successfully bring all creatures to honor God and to love their fellow creatures if They just chose to do so (and to keep at it until They get it done, like they do for the Calv elect). But Calvs (and Catholic Augustinians) can still be good Christians by the grace of God despite that. :slight_smile:

Re why God allows the confusion to exist: based on how Jesus treated the topic of judging His own apostles and disciples, and on some things Paul said later, my educated guess is that it’s for the same reasons He allows confusion of religion more generally to exist. Partly for the sake of training people in charity to their opponents (as in Lewis’ “hothouse of charity” theory for high and low practice in Anglicanism), and partly for the sake of some people who just won’t learn by principle but only from experience (which was explicitly said in the scripture to be the reason behind why God allowed Satan to mess with Job: so Satan would learn something from it. A lot of trouble happens in the world because people refuse to learn except by experience that doing injustice to our fellows only leads to failure for the doers of injustice, too. And that there’s no way to beat the house edge, so to speak, over the long term. :wink: )

If it helps you any, Paul says in his Epistle to the Ephesians that the secret will of God, now being revealed in his time, is to save all sinners from their sins by bringing them back under the leadership of God (== Christ), and that since this even includes proclaiming the gospel to rebel spiritual powers for their salvation, it also includes Gentiles, DUH! :wink:

This was to the church that not long afterward Jesus had to warn (in the brief RevJohn prologue epistles) that, despite all kinds of great things He was willing to praise and compliment them on, they had left their primary love, and unless they got back to that He was going to remove their lampstand. Which did indeed eventually happen: that church was ruined before the end of the 1st century.

If Paul says that this is the secret will of God, and even the congregation THAT THE APOSTLE WHO WROTE A THIRD OF THE NEW TESTAMENT CANON WAS PREACHING TO just couldn’t deal with it, it can’t be too surprising that nearly two thousand years later one main branch of soteriology thinks God won’t succeed at it (and typically denies God intends to save the rebel spirits at all), and the other main branch thinks the secret will of God is exactly the reverse of this, to only save some selected sinners (maybe even only a few of them) and never to even intend to try to save the others. Which “secret will” they appeal to over-against the apparent decreed will of God, which they sometimes acknowledge, for all sinners to come to repentance and be saved.

(That radically antithetical appeal to a theoretical secret will of God over-against the expressly revealed secret will of God, is another reason I have a slight prejudice against Calvs in favor of Arms, btw. :wink: )

You might try what I do. As far as I know, my wife, daughter, and myself are the only people in my parish who believe in universal salvation. I talk about it at church on a semi-regular basis, but I make only positive statements. That is, I state what I believe, but never what I do NOT believe. I also avoid the word “universalism”. For example, I might say: “God the Son became incarnate and thus saves all of creation.” And no one bats an eye!

I would not say, however, “I don’t believe in __________.” That invites disagreement and sometimes even anger.

You might consider saying something like, “Your heart yearns for your loved ones, and your heart grieves at the thought that they might be separated from God. Do you think you would feel that way if God does not also feel the same way? Don’t you think that God Himself has placed this love into your heart? As such, don’t you think it likely that Christ’s shed blood has in fact saved your loved one, even though you might not be aware of when your loved one got saved?” (Or whatever, as circumstances dictate.)

In the above example, you can give some assurance to your brothers without getting into a debate with them. :slight_smile:

Jason, thanks for your response. There’s much to think about, such as what you say about the Ephesians’ difficulty in accepting what Paul said about the secret will of God, and the similar difficulty today’s congregations have with it. And also, the confusion in soteriology as being used for “training people in charity to their opponents”.

The people in the church I go to are decent enough, and do live out their faith, so I have no complaint there, but it’s their belief in eternal damnation as a motivating force to use in evangelism that upsets me. They aren’t “Bible thumpers” or “hell-fire preachers” by any means, and I wouldn’t want to characterise them as such. But I have noticed a tendency towards an emphasis on eternal damnation in most of the sermons, and the subject always seems to come up in Bible study groups with them, to the extent that I don’t enjoy my fellowship with them, despite their individually being friendly people. It’s for this reason I’m looking for another church to go to.

Given what you’ve said about Arminianism, I might as well give Methodism (I don’t know where they come on the Arminian continuum) a try—at least for a few weeks. I’ll probably know after this time if it’s for me or not. I live in the UK, and Methodism here can be quite liberal, but maybe this is the price to pay if going there will mean the issues mentioned above can be avoided.

Incidentally, could you explain more about what you said about Arminianism; that it “inadvertently and somewhat regularly denies trinitarian Christian theism”? I wasn’t aware of this. I’m assuming such is not a tendency across all Arminian churches.

Thanks Geoffrey. This is very helpful. I’ll give it a try—assuming I am still at my current church. I mentioned in my last post here that I’d give Methodism a try for at least few weeks, but if that fails I’ll go back to my current church “armed” with your quotes.

Until [tag]jasonpratt[/tag] has some time to get back with you, Amos, I just wanted to explain that in my understanding, he’s not saying they routinely express that they deny Trinitarian theology but rather that the Arminian viewpoint logically doesn’t work with Trinitarianism. Part of it is that it has the Godhead working at cross purposes with one another, but he’ll be much better able to explain it than I would. I don’t really remember how it goes, or even why that doesn’t apply to Calvinists too.

For what it’s worth, my family’s been really enjoying attending an evangelical Quaker church recently. I haven’t yet gotten the vibe that they would frown on someone having such hope/conviction in ultimate reconciliation, even though it might not be technically supported by the stated doctrines of their meeting; and I also really appreciate their focus on the love and peace of Christ (even though I’m not a total pacifist, myself). There hasn’t been a focus on threats of eternal damnation in the sermons so far; although, I suppose when we start attending the Sunday school classes, might get more perspective on that.

Thanks, Cindy.

From what I’ve heard about Quakers in general, I imagine they would be understanding of UR. And this might extend to evangelical Quakers too.

Oh it applies to Calvs, too. In fact that paragraph was actually about a way Calvs end up inadvertently denying trinitarian theism, with the Persons of God acting intentionally to give final blasphemy and dishonor to each other, which Arminians logically avoid by the nature of their soteriological explanations for final perdition.

But Arms have their own problems. Those who claim God (even assuming unity of intention here between all three Persons) changes His mind about saving sinners from sin, effectively switch over to the Calv idea of the Persons giving final dishonor and blasphemy to each other (in the form of finally impenitent sinners. Whether the Arminian believes such sinners continue existing or are annihilated is completely irrelevant.) Or they deny omnipotence and/or omniscience to explain why God can’t save sinners from sin; or even go so far, in open theism (an idea just about unique to Arminians, and just about foreign to Calvinists), to put God (at the level of God’s fundamental existence, not simply poured out in the Incarnation) constrained naturally by natural time as though He is a creature like us – which is only, or primarily, invoked to provide an explanation for God’s final defeat by some sinners.

You might expect Arminians to at least be gung ho in protecting the importance of libertarian, not only compatibilistic, free will. But they’re also the people who paint God as respecting free will so much that He allows creatures to destroy their free will, or does it Himself punitively, in final perdition, which is not only formal nonsense, but ends up (though subtly) implying that even at the level of God’s existence free will is kind of an accident or afterthought or secondary consideration of God: it’s something God occasionally does, not something God intrinsically is. Those Arminians who claim God flat changes His mind about ever saving some sinners from sin, even though He could and would succeed if He kept at it, might (if grudgingly?) allow that God doesn’t lock sinners into sin (unless He annihilates them of course, destroying their free will utterly along with their personal existences), so they might in fact choose to repent; but it doesn’t matter, because for such Arminians God only does love, and so might or might not continue doing love – God isn’t intrinsically love on their soteriology, isn’t at His own fundamental level of self-existence, an ongoing action of fulfilling fair-togetherness between persons, so the choice to finally dis-love a person isn’t a problem, no more than it would be for any other God Who wasn’t at least binitarian. In fact those kinds of Arminians are perfectly content, for propaganda purposes, to paint sinners in hell (or before annihilation, cue the Ming the Merciless laugh from Flash Gordon :wink: ), desperately repenting of their sins but God refuses to accept it. Or maybe God can’t accept it because God isn’t actually omnipresent, and so they exist apart from God’s presence now, and so God doesn’t know they’re repenting. (Which is different from God knowing but being unable to help them now because there’s a big ugly ditch more powerful than God between God and the now-penitent sinner.)

None of that counts theories which can be, and often are, held by both Arms and Calvs (and even the occasional Kath in my experience) to the effect that the Persons of God strive against each other over sinners, or one Person has to convince the other Person to save us from our sin, which at best is bi- or tri-theism, not even merely binitarian theism. Either side could and sometimes does try to claim, for eternal conscious torment purposes (not where either side is annihilationist, for obvious reasons), that finally damned sinners exist in some pocket universe completely separated from God, so that God is not Who (and what) actively keeps them in existence anymore: and that isn’t even merely supernaturalistic theism, that’s nothing better than Mormon polytheism. Creatures somehow get their existence from something else than God! (From themselves? From Satan? From an overarching or ontologically parallel Nature which isn’t God? I’ve seen attempted explanations all three ways.) Either side might, and commonly do, claim God’s justice is fundamentally different than His love, so that at best (and their application usually isn’t at best) such Christians claim justice is something God may or may not choose to do in contravention to His love even if He also loves the object of His justice. They might (especially if they’re Arminians, though I’ve seen kind-hearted Calvs agree on this, too) realize that trinitarian theism means God (in God’s own freely ever-chosen existence) must necessarily love even the worst sinner without stopping, but God occasionally does “justice” over-against His fundamental love for the sinner, either because He’s forced to by the sinner (soft Arminianism) or because God chooses to act against His fundamental love in justice to the sinner (hard Arminianism, or Calvinism, the difference being whether God thus changes His intentions to save such a sinner or never had such intentions, though He still “loves” the sinner He has refused to save into being just instead of unjust.) Such Arms and Calvs both end up appealing implicitly, and I’ve even heard them doing it explicitly, to God’s in-justice, to save them from His justice! – let us pray, they would say, for God’s injustice, as long as it’s in our favor! In coherent trinitarian theism, though, God never acts unjustly toward anyone, ever, because God’s {dikaiosunê} (the term translated justice or righteousness in the Greek scriptures) is the fulfillment of fair-togetherness between people, at and as the level of God’s own fundamental eternal self-existence.

I could go on, but even I’m getting bored. The underlying moral point (aside from various ontological anti-trinitarian absurdities either side can and does enter on to explain final perdition), is that if trinitarian theism is true, then God’s love is fulfilled in positive justice at and as the foundation of all reality, including God’s own self-existent reality. Which means God would be acting against God’s own ground of self-existence to be fundamentally unloving or unjust toward any rational creature, no moreso than for any of the Persons to act against each other in the Trinity.

There is no righteousness apart from God’s righteousness; when we act toward trying to fulfill non-fair-togetherness between persons in any way, we’re acting against the ground of our own created existence. The only reason we don’t pop out of personal existence right that moment is because Justice Himself acts to keep us in existence anyway; but (if the Trinity is true) God can’t do that with an intention that we should finally exist or even cease to exist in unrighteousness. And if we ended up that way after all, over-against the fundamental Justice in fulfillment of Love which is God’s own self-existence… well, at the very best it would mean God made a mistake in keeping us in existence as rebels for any amount of time at all. But what it would actually mean is that injustice trumps foundational Justice Himself, which is another way of saying that ultimate reality cannot ultimately be Justice after all: some reality must be more fundamentally true than the fulfillment of fair-togetherness between persons; trinitarian theism must be wrong.

So even when I go to an Arminian Church, I keep hearing these ideas being preached, as truths to be accepted, even on pain of rebelling against God for refusing the ideas, that inadvertently deny trinitarian theism is true (or even sometimes denying mere supernaturalistic theism is true – thus also trinitarian theism by logical extension). Which wouldn’t be so bad except (a) I’m a trinitarian theist who believes trinitarian theism to be true, and I can see the logical problems with denying its truth, so that isn’t an option I can take, especially not to affirm a theology of final unrighteousness; and (b) THEY’RE SUPPOSED TO BE TRINITARIAN, TOO!

It would be painful to hear such things from a Mormon or a Muslim or a unitarian Christian, though more painful from a Muslim because they’re at least supposed to be supernaturalistic theists, which Mormonism long ago rejected (marketing misdirection aside), and more painful from a unitarian Christian because not only are they supposed to be supernaturalistic theists, even they ought to (and sometimes do) know better than to claim the Father and the Son (and/or the Spirit) act against each other’s intentions sometimes.

But at least they don’t know better. Trinitarians are supposed to know better. We should at least know better than to teach and preach trinitarian theism out of one side of our mouth, and then implicitly throw trinitarianism under the bus.

Especially to protect final blasphemy, dishonor, and unrighteousness. :angry:

Eh. Some people are willing to pay that price, and I can understand that. But I would see what is supposedly being gained is simply lost another way, by undermining the only unique ground for assurance of the final triumph of love and justice between persons: a belief that ultimate reality is, even apart from creation, the ongoing freely chosen triumph of love fulfilled in justice between persons.

Anything less, is less. I don’t blame people for thinking less is true, if they can only believe in less; they should think more is too much, if they can’t see (yet) how more is true. But that doesn’t mean I’d be any more at home in their religious services than I feel at home where such things are nominally and sometimes taught but then also denied.

Still, Methodists stand some good chance of being both trinitarian and consistently trinitarian enough to believe and teach a salvation from unrighteousness into final righteousness instead of any kind of final unrighteousness.

Very astute analysis, Jason. Amen. :slight_smile:

Jason thanks for your comprehensive response. Given what you have said regarding Arminianist and Calvinist misunderstandings about the Trinity, and your thoughts about the problems of attending a Methodist church in relation to this, maybe I’d be better off not going to church at all, as it would only mean that I would be yoked with unbelievers. Apart from trying to find a Christian Universalist denomination (which I have tried to with no luck) the only other option is to avoid blasphemous and unbelieving denominations that dishonour God, which means all denominations that currently exist.

I am extremely sensitive to that problem, Amos – as is obvious from my technical ramblings :wink: – but I think there is something positive to be said in favor of being, well, yoked with unbelievers, even when that’s a crucial problem. Especially since they aren’t intentionally being unbelievers, exactly, just by accident. Christ might answer that even radical unbelievers might be part of the mature flock already, based on how they’re responding to the promptings of the Holy Spirit for just charity. If they’re stepping on the Lion’s tail in the dark, well, we all do that inadvertently to some extent.

But then there’s a question of concern for truth, and how that practically translates into evangelical hope and calling.

On yet another other hand, I shouldn’t dismiss personal problems stemming from feeling pain simply from being around more than two or three people at a time – it wouldn’t be right for me to recommend withdrawing from church based on my example so far as that goes, because most people don’t have my particular problem.

So I’m not saying the right thing to do is to find a congregation anyway and try to fit in – but it can easily be a right thing to do, since it at least points in the direction God evidently wants us to reach someday. Similarly, I’m not saying the right thing to do is to withdraw from congregations – but in a special case situation it could be, temporarily, a right thing to do.

I see what you mean. I’d miss some sort of Christian fellowship. And as you say, many non-UR believers are so simply through ignorance rather than belligerence.

By the way, regarding non-UR believers who are not ignorant but simply belligerent (there are many I’ve seen online), have you any opinions as to why they are so aggressively against UR? Why don’t they rejoice at the idea that all will ultimately be saved (including any non-Christian family and friends they might have), preferring instead to defend to the last the everlasting hell doctrine—even when they can see clearly that there are UR passages in the Bible? Do they take a prideful pleasure in the idea that only a few will be saved? What do you think?

It sure isn’t my place to judge their hearts and their underlying intentions! – or if I do, to make as charitable a guess as I can, often from scanty evidence.

A lot of people believe that salvation comes from, or is exhibited by, having the proper beliefs (which is gnosticism). And that’s naturally going to lead to those people thinking their own salvation from eternal conscious torment or from annihilation is at stake, and the salvation of other people, if they don’t resist as hard as they can. As I like to say, in their defense (even in defense of non-Christians who are like that, such as Muslim terrorists), no one is tolerant of Ebola, and in principle they shouldn’t be.

So for Arminianistic Christians in that condition, they want to make sure they’ve properly convinced God to save them from final perdition (or that they’ve properly convinced the Son to convince the Father to spare them from perdition :unamused: ), and depending on how hardcore they are as Arms they may want to make sure they keep convincing God to spare or save them from hell. If they think they do this by right beliefs, and if they think final perdition is a right belief, they’ll be easily belligerent about opposing Christian universalism, as much so as about opposing any kind of Calvinism (since that denies and opposes the gospel assurance they protect: the total scope of God’s intention to save sinners from sin.)

For Calvinistic Christians in that condition, they want to make sure about whether they’re among God’s elect or not. They don’t believe they have to earn God’s salvation, or to earn God’s persistence in saving them, and they have the important gospel assurance of God’s original continuing persistence to save whomever He intends to save. But they reject the Arminian assurance that God definitely means to save everyone which certainly would include themselves even if they happen not to feel that way at the moment. Moreover, for a Calvinist, especially a harder core Calv, there is a strong practical reason to identify the non-elect, because those people must be wholly evil (if a person has any true good at all, that would be evidence of the action of the Holy Spirit in their lives, and so be evidence that God intends to save them from sin), and so on this theory can be properly hated and opposed to the fullest strength, just like God chooses to do (on this theory). Even aside from this leading to vast uncharity toward the non-elect opponent, it’s simply a matter of protecting one’s self, and one’s loved ones, from people who will only cause harm to other people. So identifying the non-elect, if possible (except it isn’t really possible in principle, since God might be waiting to start leading them to repentance later), is just as important though for different reasons as identifying the elect if possible (except it isn’t really possible in principle, since anyone may mistakenly believe anyone is of the elect, even the non-elect believing themselves to be of the elect.) Looking hard for that assurance which Arminians have and they lack, Calvinists may easily latch onto the idea that right doctrine is evidence of election, and even that wrong doctrine is evidence of non-election (though the two ideas are quite distinct and don’t necessarily entail each other). Being gung-ho about standing for final perdition thus helps serve as reassurance that they are, or may probably be, among the elect, instead of among the hopelessly non-elect whom God never shall choose to save from final perdition; and someone’s belief against final perdition may (on this theory) be evidence of them being of the non-elect. Especially since false teachers are strongly condemned in the scriptures to post mortem punishment, and they see little evidence at best that false Christian teachers, identified as such, are ever expected to repent and be saved. (And any such evidence pointed out to them, such as Paul’s expectations about handing over various false Christian teachers to punishment, even to death, but so they will learn better and be surely saved, would contradict apparent evidence they previously accepted in favor of final perdition! – which could easily lead to unraveling more such evidence as principles are applied forward. So that’s a threat which they’ll strongly resist acknowledging.)

Let me stress: neither such Christian is being evil by doing this. They’re compounding a few doctrinal errors (which they don’t recognize as such) with some panic over them and/or other ‘good’ (or at least loved) people being threatened with the worst possible end for anyone. They can easily be led into uncharity and injustice this way, but the underlying problem isn’t a heart insistence on denying God’s salvation of their enemies. They can be led by this situation into that eventually, but the original problem isn’t their own evil desire against other people.

Now, I say this not only in their defense, but also because I know some people do not only have such desires but intentionally foster them, and without the excuses these people have.

I know that because I was that kind of person: the kind who didn’t have any kind of misguided intention of protecting good people, or loved people, or even myself, from the worst possible end. Nor did I have any kind of psychological damage from being abused by other people which might emotionally excuse my hatred as a cross I had to bear and from which I should be healed someday. I just hated my enemies and wanted to be able to hate at least some of them permanently, like AI opponents in a video game whom I could safely oppose as much as I wanted forever.

In my defense (if I may be allowed that), I didn’t hate my enemies very strongly; I was fine with God saving most people, even post-mortem (though for many years I couldn’t see any evidence of that). But I was also fine with God not saving some people and I didn’t really care much about the reasons why He didn’t (though me being me I naturally had reasons why He didn’t, which seemed like good reasons to me. :ugeek: )

I was the opposite of the Alexandrian goldsmith to whom, in the legend of the first Desert Father, the Holy Spirit brought St. Anthony the Great, to be taught what it means to be truly righteous – and to learn Christian universalism. I was comfortably sure I had done the right things to secure my own salvation, and aside from some people I happened to emotionally care about I didn’t really care whether others were saved or not. I didn’t care if they were, and I didn’t care if they weren’t. If most of the people outside in the street went finally to hell, that might be personally bothersome if I happened to care about some of them, but otherwise I didn’t mind. I was like St. Anthony in the legend.

But the Alexandrian goldsmith, who only prayed twice a day, once in the morning and once at night, and who unlike Anthony didn’t have a high opinion of his own righteousness, prayed only one thing: he gave thanks to God that God was so great and good that He would have no trouble at all saving all those other people, no matter how many they were, no matter how evil they were – but he worried that even God might have some trouble to save such a sinner as himself.

I only read that legend many years after coming to believe that I ought to believe God can and will save all sinners from their sins. But I remember reading that legend the first time and sympathizing with what St. Anthony must have felt (in whatever history lay behind the legend) as he wailed in grief and awe and tore his clothes: IT IS TRUE, IT IS TRUE, I AM NOT EVEN AS RIGHTEOUS AS A GOLDSMITH IN ALEXANDRIA!!

Because that’s how I felt when I started to realize I ought to accept in my heart that Jesus will not deny the name of Jesus. But that all that time, in my heart, I had been denying the name of Jesus. And as I studied the scriptures harder and more carefully, I came to see that whereas I had thought I was like the apostles, I not only had been like the Pharisees, but I had been like the apostles in the wrong ways (in which they were like the Pharisees!) I should have been putting myself penitently in the place of the Pharisees, and the rebuked apostles. I had been blithely agreeing with all those judgments of Jesus, because obviously that was the right thing to do to be on Jesus’ side, and I even noticed that Jesus often set up His opponents the way Nathan set up King David when telling his parable.

I just didn’t notice I was King David. “THOU ART THE MAN!”

So, yeah, such people exist, and I was one of them. I know what Saul of Tarsus felt when he thought he was being righteous, and really was being righteous in many real and important ways – and yet all along was the chief of sinners, no better than Satan.

But I don’t like to make guesses about which people are such people, or to preach against them particularly. I would rather preach against myself. :slight_smile: I look for real excuses for why those-non-universalists-over-there (or those other alt-Christians over there, or those other religious people over there, or those atheists and agnostics over there) behave they way they do.

I didn’t have their excuses. And I wouldn’t have their excuses if I went back to behaving that way.

Some of them, realistically, don’t have any more excuse than I did. But it isn’t my business to focus on figuring out who those people are.

Challenging and inspiring Jason!

Thanks again, Jason, for your detailed reply—always informative.

I see what you mean about how the theology of belligerent Arminians and Calvinists locks them into such a rigid anti-UR attitude once they believe it is the acceptance of their theology that saves them rather than simply accepting Jesus.

I can empathise with your description of how you used to be at one time. Some aspects of it could apply to the way I used to be. Thank God that my eyes were eventually opened to UR, and how it glorifies God and his love for us far more than any other theological position I’m aware of.

Incidentally, I’ve been reading online some of the opinions of John Piper and R. C. Sproul, Jr—not a good experience. That Calvinism is responsible for producing apologists for it such as these shows that Calvinism must definitely be a stranger to the Gospel. I’m sure Arminianism has it’s own such apologists. Thank God I believe in UR, otherwise I’d be very worried if my choices were only between Arminianism and Calvinism.