The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Who are really the kings of the earth in Rev 21:24?

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

Some UR’s have identified the kings of the earth in Rev 21:24 as being the same kings in the earth in Rev 19:19 (a move that was anticipated for it is really your only defense to hold on to UR). Where is it recorded of this reconciliation actually happening after the final judgment? If no record, why would you believe this reconciliation actually happening after the final judgment when its not found recorded in God’s word? If you can’t produce any record are you not just assuming or guessing the kings of the earth in Rev 19:19 are the same in Rev 21:24, yes? Is this an example of sound exegesis?

Could these kings of the earth be the same kings of the earth mentioned in Rev 1:5-6? Jesus says he is the prince of the kings of the earth. Who are these kings of the earth? they are believers in Christ. We are kings and priests in God when we accept Jesus.

Now, Rev 21:24 reads ‘And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it’

In the millennial reign of Christ all the kings of the earth will be saved. So, does it not stand to reason that these kings of the earth come from the millennial reign go through the final judgment and bring their glory and honor into the New Jerusalem?

Now to address Rev 22:2. Could the healing of the leaves be for the millennial nations that need healing? God bless.

Jesus Said You Must Be Alive To Receive Eternal Life!
Dear Revival, why does Yahweh need an eternal Hell?
? on the Lake of Fire & Second Death
#2

This is my last new post, Sonia. :sunglasses:

#3

it must be stated that this is FAR from the “only defense of UR”.
the ENTIRE META-NARRATIVE, THE MESSAGE OF THE OT, ALL OF PAUL’S WRITINGS, MUCH OF JESUS’ TEACHING (AS ALREADY ESTABLISHED IN YOUR BILLION OTHER THREADS) is enough for me.

you shifted your doctrinal position before, so if we’re to accept your instruction, oh wise one (wise in your own eyes), we need to be sure that you’ve finally got it right now.

to date, i’m far from convinced.

#4

If UR fails to prove their foundation then all the supportive scripture that you think supports UR does not stand.(leaving scripture in context UR does not stand anyways) For UR to be true one must be able to show evidence of anyone exiting the lake of fire after the final judgment and mysteriously getting into the New Jerusalem and New Earth.The kings of the earth defense is the only defense UR had to try to substantiate this. This foundation has shown to be flawed and to be sinking sand.

You should pray and ask the Holy Spirit confirmation over anything you are taught in scripture and search them yourselves to see if the content being taught lines up with the word of God. Correction by the Holy Spirit is a better way of describing my better understanding of the scriptures. When you leave the teaching of the Holy Spirit out of your life you are susceptible to false doctrine. For I’m still growing and learning in the grace of God and conforming to the image of Christ. God bless.

#5

I’m not going to elaborate on the how of salvation of the kings of the earth. I do concede that, as far as I currently understand, the Biblical text is ambiguous. But I do believe that it can be interpreted in a universalist way. Even if it couldn’t be read this way (you offer no reason why it shouldn’t be), this is not the “only defense” to universalism. We could have the book of Revelation end in its twentieth chapter, and still be justified in our hope for universalism from the numerous universalist texts of Paul that show the end result.

Isaiah (60), who the author of Revelation is obviously referencing, has at the very least most of the kings repenting. He writes that all nations, and their kings will come to the New Kingdom, including those outside of promise (the sons of Ishmael), the oppressors and tyrants (such as the Assyrians), and those in the furthermost ends of the world (Tarshish). The gates of the New Jerusalem will not close “so that men may bring to [Israel] the wealth of the nations, with their kings led in procession.” The latter part means that the kings of the earth have tasted the humility of divine “non-power” and are being led by their humbled nation. Isaiah (and John in Revelation) is exaggerating the extent to which the humility of the world has extended – even to the kings! The YLT translates it thus: “even their kings are led.” This is a really radical point, that we shouldn’t dismiss quickly. One has to understand that kings (anyone possessing or assenting to political authority) are (by virtue of their self-glory) radically anti-God and worthy of condemnation (I’m not going to spend time arguing this point as I don’t have the time). So humbling any king is an outrageous demonstration of Yahweh’s power to humble anyone else. And greater still, is that those nations that the prophets say will definitely receive restoration are those who the Hebrews would consider the most offensive – Egypt, Assyria and Sodom. If God wills and can restore these nations, I am sure He wills and can restore any other.

Those nations and kingdoms left who continue to refuse to serve Israel (by living according to Torah – as expounded by Yeshua) will perish and be utterly ruined (60:12). This means that these nations will be broken, lost and brought to despair, just like Egypt, Assyria and Sodom was. It says nothing of Yahweh’s judgement being of eternal duration here. Israel was once left for utter ruin, and yet will clearly be restored. Hosea reflects the intentions of God’s destructive judgement superbly (seriously, read at least chapters five and six prayerfully). You may disagree – as a pleb, I probably couldn’t convince anyone – but you won’t trump universalism with your particular reading of the kings of the earth in Revelation. Godbless.

#6

UR trumps itself by not being able to provide evidence of anyone exiting the lake of fire, being re-judged to be found written in the book of life to able to enter the New Jerusalem after the final judgment in Rev 20:11-15. The kings of the earth defense is all UR had to try to substantiate this. God bless.

#7

That’s simply not true. And we did provide evidence, but you refuse to interpret it that way. I also showed that Isaiah has, at the least, most of the nations entering the Kingdom. But that’s fine, it’s your pejorative to interpret as you are led. So while we are at this impasse we should move elsewhere in scripture to see if the Lake of Fire tells of any other final destination – other than most of humanity being unreconciled and rebellious for all of eternity. May I recommend any of the innumerable Pauline texts?

#8

All the scripture that you believe supports UR does not stand unless:

  1. You can show anyone exiting the lake of fire after Rev 20:11-15.
  2. Show where their names are recorded in the book of life after Rev 20:11-15 to be able to enter the NJ.
  3. Show anywhere in scripture where this final judgment has been reversed after Rev 20:11-15.

Do you not understand that all the shotgun scripture support you give to me that you believe supports UR cannot be true unless you can show evidence of the very thing that you say these verses support? God bless.

#9

This sound much like a Unitarian saying ‘unless you can show me the word trinity in the bible I’ll not believe it!’. This is not a debate in any meaningful sense of the word.

No one else is bound by your narrow 3 point criteria. Only in your opinion does the rest of the weight of scripture that others bring to bear in support of UR fail based on your 3 points. It doesn’t mean that it has failed in some absolute sense discernable to all; it just means that you personally believe it has failed. You berate others for wrenching verses out of context and then do exactly the same (for example your individual quotes from Hebrews in one of the other numerous threads you’ve started - you provide no context whatsoever of the overarching background and themes that the author develops over the entire letter).

#10

Zeph 3:8 “Therefore wait for me,” declares the LORD,
“for the day when I rise up to seize the prey.
For my decision is to gather nations,
to assemble kingdoms,
to pour out upon them my indignation,
all my burning anger;
for in the fire of my jealousy
all the earth shall be consumed.

9 “For at that time I will change the speech of the peoples
to a pure speech,
that all of them may call upon the name of the LORD
and serve him with one accord.

Revival
Is it possible this is describing the lake of fire? If not where do you place this outpouring of fire on the nations (including her kings)

#11

When God’s judgements are in the Earth the inhabitants learn righteousness (shamelessly ripped out of context but satisfingly apposite at the same time) :slight_smile:

So… God’s judgements cause people to become righteous and it is appointed unto man once to die - and then Judgement! (this is obviously a good thing).

#12

Not at all, the word Trinity is just a descriptive word we use that doesn’t mean it isn’t addressed in the Bible. The trinity can easily be shown from scripture. :wink:

But you are bound to show evidence of people exiting the lake of fire after Rev 20:11-15 to support all the scripture UR says will happen. We are supposed to live by every word of God. If you are telling me such and such will happen but can’t provide evidence from the word of God…why should I believe that? Jeff, If I told you that such and such is true and will happen…And you reply “Show me evidence from the word of God’ and I say…'I can’t, but it will happen because God is love” would you believe me? Heck No you wouldn’t, but you expect me to accept UR to be true when it cannot provide evidence anyone exiting the lake of fire and being recorded in the book of life and entering the NJ after Rev 20:11-15 :wink:

#13

I don’t think so ,its talking about Jerusalem being reproved for sin.

#14

So fire is for reproving when its “Gods people” and for torturing when its not?

Oh and by the way the word for nations here is goyim, as in gentiles, heathen, everyone except the Jews or “God’s people”

#15

And by what logic can this assertion be deduced? This is akin to abandoning the atonement because most of the mechanics are ambiguous.

If there is any absence of 1 and 2 (and we don’t believe there is an absence of 1 – we believe the nations and the kings of the earth of 19: and 20: are the same as those recorded in 21:), it does not necessarily follow that the Lake of Fire is eternal. We have Paul’s consummation of the ages explicitly described as being a universal reconciliation. And I don’t think anyone here believes Yahweh will “reverse” his final judgement. We just believe He will give a final judgement in order to finally restore and reprove His children – in accordance with His purpose and love for the world.

#16

No problem. God bless.

#17

Hey Revival.

I find your commitment to defend what you believe the scripture says as honorable, If someone cannot disprove your understanding of scripture, and the logic you use interpreting it, then you reject their arguements, and rightly so. I hope however, you can at least appreciate the opposing viewpoints that have been offered here.

It seems that if you are seeking Truth, then you could at least allow yourself to consider that the OT (Isaiah, Zeph etc) and Pauline Texts just might reveal a different ending then what you are concluding with your Revelation 21 arguement.

Setting aside what your mind tells you…what is it your heart tells you about God?

In his book Hope Beyond Hell, Gerry Beauchemin Points out the following statistics regarding the scope of how many people your God will be sending to an Eternal Fire:

Global Missions Statistics 2,000
:diamonds: 1.1 billion—Muslims
:diamonds: 1.0 billion—Roman Catholics
:diamonds: 890 million—Hindus
:diamonds: 875 million—Non-Religious/Atheists
:diamonds: 680 million—Evangelicals (11 percent of world’s population)
:diamonds: 340 million—Buddhists
:diamonds: 340 million—Chinese Folk Religions
:diamonds: 220 million—Tribal Religions
:diamonds: 17 million—Judaism

He also points out the following:

“A.W. Tozer and Billy Graham are quoted by Dr. R. L. Hymers Jr. to
have said only 10-15 percent (respectively) of church members are
saved. If you subtract Tozer and Graham’s 15 percent from Mission
Frontier’s 11 percent global Evangelical Christianity figure, you have
over 98 percent of the world’s population going to an eternal hell”.

Even by conservative numbers, you would have to conclude that Billions of people will literally be burning forever wouldn’t you?

Is your heart overjoyed at the thought of Worshipping forever this God who created the world …knowing his creation would result in Billions Burning in agony in Hell forever?

#18

Hmm well since you ignored my last post on your “11 Reasons” I can’t say that I expect you to answer this one. Nonetheless since you asked the question again in more detail, I’ll repost my answer,

The picture that Paul paints in 1 Corinthians 15 is one of the whole universe being made alive in Christ. The “leaves meant to heal the nations” and wicked in the “lake of fire” hint that John’s picture is not complete. Everyone will one day be in the “book of life” for just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying."(Revelation 22:14-15)

My dear friend who else would have need of entering? The righteous are already inside, the wicked are outside. “Look! I am making all things new!”(Rev 21:5). The work is not yet finished in Revelation, but one day it will be, then all shall be well. All shall be made alive!

#19

Good points awakening…

Also Jesus’ own parable of the lost sheep is applicable here. He was of the opinion that an ordinary, mortal shepherd should leave the 99 who are safe (inside the new Jerusalem) and track down and carry back the 1 that is lost (those outside the city). If he is the same yesterday, today and forever then why stop tracking them down and returning them to the fold? Is it the case that where sin abounds grace abounds much more now but then suddenly stops abounding much more. Does the God who will not cast off forever only do so for a limited period of time?

If all the passages that declare God’s will cannot be thwarted and God will have all men to be saved then how can that not be so?

#20

HI Awaken
The book of Revelation is a vision given to John of end time prophecy that will come to pass and be fulfilled when Jesus returns. If you pick up in Rev 22:6 these things you read in Revelation** “must shortly be done”**. Verse 7 Jesus says" Behold I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book". Verse 12 Jesus says “And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work should be”. Didn’t Jesus already do that in Rev 20:11-15? No, because these verses indicate that Jesus has not come back yet for the book of Revelation to be fulfilled. All the things written in Revelation will take place and be fulfilled when Jesus returns.

Verse 14 is in continuity with verses 6-13 and picks up with saying those who do so will be allowed to enter to experience spiritual life. Jesus says those who overcome will experience spiritual eternity with him. (Rev 3:12;21). Verse 15 indicates these people will not be allowed to experience spiritual life. They will be in a eternal state of death.

Again, In verse Rev 22:20 He that testifies of these things saith** “Surely I come quickly**” These verses indicate that Jesus has not come back yet for the book of Revelation to be fulfilled. All the things written in Revelation will take place and be fulfilled when Jesus returns. God bless.