Who believes that God doesn't punish people?

[Aaron]

John wrote:
Maybe, with the discoveries of Quantum Physics, we realize things can be in two places at the same time. Often I wonder if Heaven on Earth isn’t just another place and we in our resurrected body, are already moving about and having our being there, while in another time and place we sleepily tread the earth. It seems we are bound to the earth by the vaporous reality of the material realm until the seed of Christ within, is enlivened and we slowly come to see another world and live in it.

John - I love you man, but I seriously don’t know what the #@!% you’re talking about sometimes.

[auggybendoggy]

But if the human mind is dependent on a functioning brain (which all of our modern advances in neuroscience seem to suggest), then it would be impossible for our mind to continue after death.

Isn’t that the debate. If the human mind is not dependent on a function brain (which the bible seesme to validate), then it would be possible for our mind to continue during death. I highly doubt that modern science will be able to prove if there is mind that continues in spirit any more that it will be able to prove that there is a spirit at all.

Moreover, it is my view that the word “spirit” (when referring to humans) does not refer to some ethereal substance (or what have you) that leaves the body at death, but to either 1) the attribute or property that is common to all living creatures and visibly manifested in breathing (i.e., what is commonly referred to as “life”) or 2) some aspect or process of a person’s mind, such as their thought pattern or mental state/disposition. In either case, it refers to some kind of unseen influence, but in both cases the influence is dependent on a person being embodied.

As for “Ethereal substance”, no one knows what exactly to make of it because it seems it’s beyond physical comprehension. Again, no proofs either way but I would argue scripture suggests that spirit is unlike physical (flesh and blood) and penetrates this molecular universe.

Because the dead couldn’t be consulted (at least, not without God’s miraculous intervention!), and thus people attempting to do so would only be deceiving themselves, or being deceived by others. Plus it was a pagan practice, and God did not want his people engaging in anything that would lead them into paganism.

Or perhaps the warning is because it’s somewhat of a dimented act to dialogue with the dead. If Pagans did not practice it would God be ok with it? I hardly doubt warnings come because pagans do it. If Martians did not exist and God warned us of communicating with martians, what kind of warning would that be? The story of Sauls discussion with the witch seems to indicate she in fact did talk with Samuel and Sam’s words were not so deceiving were they. He could have said…“Kill David, for the devil is trying to place him on your throne”. Instead the illusion or demon flat out stated “you sinned, God’s pissed, you’re done!”

Well, first, I don’t believe the Bible teaches the actual existence of “fallen spirits,” so the question of whether or not they are embodied is, to me, an irrelevant one (I do think angels are embodied, though). Second, I understand the “spirits” in 1John 4 that the apostle tells us to “test” refer to teachers/prophets, and not to disembodied beings. I believe John is equating (by the figure of speech, metonymy) a person’s mental disposition/thoughts (which could be governed by truth or error - 1John 4:6) with the person themselves.

Whether the spirit is fallen is irrelevant to the point. It appears to me the question of whether or not they are embodied HAS to be irrelevant because if a spirit is not embodied and has a mind, then the question of the spirit of a person will have great weight on whether the mind can exist outside of a lifeless body. So back to the point. I believe CLEARLY spirits (demons) can posess a person of which the person loses control of their own body. I also clearly believe humans have spirits. Now the question still remains can the human have a spirit apart from their body.

I currently don’t see enough evidence that physical death demands a cease of consciousness. Thus I might ask the obvious. Do we have spirits? If not, then why does paul say “The spirits of prophets is subject to the control of prophets”? If yes, then how is it a physical body can be possessed by several spirits?
Again, according to my understanding what a person’s “spirit” is, Paul would simply be saying (in 1Cor 14:32) that the aspect of the prophet’s mind to which God communicates a prophecy is under the prophet’s control, so they can restrain themselves from speaking if necessary and thus maintain order in the church instead of creating confusion.

I notice you forgot to comment on spirits which posess humans.

The only way I could believe that some conscious part of us survives death is if it were revealed by God, either directly or via written revelation. I can’t speak for others, but my experience of consciousness/rational self-awareness does not suggest to me that it will continue after I die (i.e., prior to my being resurrected by Christ). My consciousness seems very much dependent on my working brain (i.e., whether I am awake or asleep, etc.). My grandmother has late stage Alzheimer’s; although she used to be a very sharp and intelligent woman, she can’t take care of herself anymore, or recognize anyone she once knew. And based on what I think Scripture reveals, I don’t think there is some conscious part of her that has remained unaffected by the disease that will leave her body when she dies and go somewhere. My hope is in the resurrection, when my grandmother’s mind and health will be perfectly restored (and not just restored, but enhanced more than I can imagine!). That’s where our hope should be grounded - not in the pagan idea of a disembodied state following death. Christ did not come to bring that to light; that’s not why he died and was raised. Moreover, I think sleeping is the closest thing to death that we can experience prior to death itself (hence the repeated references to death as being sleep in Scripture), and this experience certainly doesn’t lead me to believe that I maintain a conscious existence after death.

Like the burning bush which has NOTHING to do with resurrection, Jesus pulls a rabbit out of the hat on the Saducees…“See here guys, theres the ressurestion”. I tend to think if the question was asked if minds require a phyisical brain in order to operate he would simply do the same…point us to passages where Demons (spirits) are operating without brains. I also tend to think he would point us to the very scriptures I’ve pointed out to you; warnings of consulting the dead, demon posession, spirits which RETURN to the person upon their ressurection. I have a hard time believing he would say, the spirit of the person actually in annihilated upon death and then reborn upon resurrection. Perhaps that’s why he says “she’s not dead, but sleeping” and then scripture declares “her spirit returned to her” as it had LEFT her body.

Now I realize no one has a corner on how to explain what a spirit is or what it’s like, but there is enough boundaries placed in scripture to say, they operate without bodies as we do and even will move into the body and infiltrate the very BRAIN of the person. So it seems clear at least, perhaps some common ground, A brain can host several spirits.

[John]

John wrote:
Maybe, with the discoveries of Quantum Physics, we realize things can be in two places at the same time. Often I wonder if Heaven on Earth isn’t just another place and we in our resurrected body, are already moving about and having our being there, while in another time and place we sleepily tread the earth. It seems we are bound to the earth by the vaporous reality of the material realm until the seed of Christ within, is enlivened and we slowly come to see another world and live in it.

John - I love you man, but I seriously don’t know what the #@!% you’re talking about sometimes.

Ah, grasshoppa …

[JeffA]

I think quantum physics is used as a catch-all by the religious as a means for the miraculous to somehow be possible. Unfortunately they normally start applying the quantun effects that operate at micro levels to the macro world - so for instance Jesus could have really walked through walls by making his atoms do something at the ‘quantum’ level - well sorry it doesn’t work like that at the macro level.

[Todd]

I adopt my terminology from that of the early 19th-century Universalist Church in the U. S. A. Within the Universalist Church was a huge controversy between Universalists who believed in post-mortem punishments (who were called “Restorationists”) and Universalists who did not believe in post-mortem punishments (who were called “Ultra-Universalists”).

This is interesting. For the record, based on this terminology, I am an Ultra-Universalist.

Todd

[Aaron]

Aug wrote:
Or perhaps the warning is because it’s somewhat of a dimented act to dialogue with the dead. If Pagans did not practice it would God be ok with it? I hardly doubt warnings come because pagans do it. If Martians did not exist and God warned us of communicating with martians, what kind of warning would that be? The story of Sauls discussion with the witch seems to indicate she in fact did talk with Samuel and Sam’s words were not so deceiving were they. He could have said…“Kill David, for the devil is trying to place him on your throne”. Instead the illusion or demon flat out stated “you sinned, God’s pissed, you’re done!”

No, I don’t think God would have been ok with it, because, again, they still would have been engaging in something that was based on a falsehood. But I think the seriousness of the sin was due to its association with paganism.

Concerning Saul and the medium, I do believe that Samuel actually made an appearance; I just don’t think he appeared in a disembodied state: “Them Which Are Asleep”

[John]

Jeff you are probably referring to this paragraph of mine quoted below. First of all let me apologize for not being clear with my use of Quantum Physics. I hope to explain better my use of the subject, following the quoted paragraph.

Maybe, with the discoveries of Quantum Physics, we realize things can be in two places at the same time. Often I wonder if Heaven on Earth isn’t just another place and we in our resurrected body, are already moving about and having our being there, while in another time and place we sleepily tread the earth. It seems we are bound to the earth by the vaporous reality of the material realm until the seed of Christ within, is enlivened and we slowly come to see another world and live in it.

I agree with you and even cringe when I see the term “quantum” used as a “catch all” often by New Age types. I am far from those, as I use what little I know of Quantum Physics, as I do other things in nature. That being, nature is a shadow or reflection of the heavenly.

Now as far as the relationship of the micro to the macro, I believe you sell the relation short. Discoveries into the workings of the micro are the discoveries of the workings of the universe. Quantum Physics is tied closely to Cosmology.

In my message, I used the “shadow” of nature’s quantum to reflect the continued workings of God toward man in another time and another space. Quantum discoveries show us that particles can move backwards as well as forwards in time and appear in all possible places at once. That is the shadow or type I use to give support of the Cross having process in other times and in other places, IE at deaths occurrence or even in heaven itself. Throw in the scientific evidence that in the universe there is faster-than-light transfers of information and we see the shadow of a thousand years being realized as a day. What may seem as an instant work in one realm may be a thousand year work in other realm.

I have asked a number of times with regard to those that promote an instant resurrection, “do you have time and events in your heaven? Do you have time and events occurring after your resurrection?”
I ask that, because I propose heaven is full of times and events which demonstrate process and goal. I also see resurrection being a process far from instant. As I have said before these that, carry an “instant rapture type mentality” want to circumvent the process of the cross, which is the process of resurrection. They are wonderfully bound together. In the passage of time, we die a little(cross) and that same little is like wise made alive(resurrection). Our crucifixion and resurrection is a process. With the term resurrection, I speak of the carnal soul(seat of the flesh) being reconstituted and reconciled with the mind of Christ. Further more, I do not see the breathing of our last breath, as the end of this process, as some allude by their doctrines of “soul sleep” or “instant resurrection meeting our last earthly breath.” There must be the experience of the cross realized and that takes time. That cross-time would surely to be missing, with regard to the unrepentant soul breathing his last breath and being whisked away into mindless soul sleep or instant resurrection. Some time and in some place after man’s physical demise man’s soul must have it’s time for the experiencing of the cross which proportionally births our resurrection. Time, is even part of the cross, thus I believe as long as their is a time and events, there will be the workings of the cross. Does heaven have both time and is it a place? Surely it has both for that gives the very meaning and substance to the term “body” whether resurrected or mortal. Let’s go further with those that believe the substance of our mortal mortal bodies are reconstituted and made immortal. Seems to me with that concept, the mortal body has to have Christ’s immortal resurrection life in in from the git go. Matter is spiritual, and I have argued that for a many years.

So much with regard to rightly dividing the truth , it is always about perspective and depends on who is doing the observing. Which takes us further into the discoveries of the quantum, where it has been shown our consciousness affects the behavior of particles of matter. As I said, it is important to know who is doing the looking and what is being thought with regards to man relationship in God?

I also deduce and have seen with my own eyes, all forum discussions on the subject of “resurrection” become lengthy, as with no end in sight, while also demonstrating a propensity to split into other a plethora of new discussions. Maybe such strange behavior has it’s shadow in quantum theory that proposes the universe is splitting, every Planck-time (10 E-43 seconds) into billions of parallel universes.

Yes, out there or better said, "within us, is already a place, to be later realized, called “heaven and earth met”. This inward place must surely contain our resurrected body, whether you realize it or not.

In closing, I can consciously imagine in another world, in another time RanRan will instantly take this, which I have written, and stick it up his arse and chew on it, and then pronounce it “worthy!” In this present disordered world I can only expect his customary derogatory comment. Please also note, if my message is ignored and ridiculed here, I am splitting for another world which I am sure, is filled with a people that will esteem and love me greatly after reading my thoughts.

Such are the thoughts and life of the suffering mystic,

John

PS Interesting enough, many physicists with the recent discoveries in the quantum are arguing that reverse time travel is what actually happens in reality. That might make sense of all the “re” words that fill ourTheology.

[auggybendoggy]

Aaron,
I see that JP has already raised the issues I have (and more). I also noticed that no one persued Pratt’s arguments. Seems a bit like my posts that the spirits or demons which have mental capacity without a body (thus needing to posess a body) was not addressed.

Pratt wrote:

Once the doctrines are affirmed, of God’s essential existence as Spirit superordinate to the Incarnation, and of Christ’s active preaching to the spirits in hades/sheol (especially in order to lead them out!), then while some type of soul sleep may still be true, the simple denial of the conscious and active existence of spirits in hades/sheol must be concurrently rejected.

and

6.) Rebel spirits apparently exist without embodiment, though they often seek (and accomplish) embodiment (in various ways), according to scriptural testimony. I realize this won’t go very far for people who are committed (for various reasons) to explaining away the scriptural affirmation of their existence; but if we’re appealing to scriptural testimony on the topic of conscious activity in hades/sheol/Tartarus/the swirling-depths (the Abyss), as though what the truth is ought to be clearly obvious from what the scriptures say: there it is. The actual positive testimony, whatever we think the testimony might mean (whether less than the imagery or more than the imagery), is in favor of consciously active and perceptive disembodied spirits there, too.

Now I’m not near as well spoken as Pratt but I would like to see you tackle this one Aaron. JP alludes the to very point in his first sentence (2nd quote).

Looking foward to your response.

Aug

[Aaron]

Aug wrote:
Aaron,
I see that JP has already raised the issues I have (and more). I also noticed that no one persued Pratt’s arguments. Seems a bit like my posts that the spirits or demons which have mental capacity without a body (thus needing to posess a body) was not addressed.

Well, I don’t believe in “disembodied” beings (and God is not disembodied because he never had a body; he’s an uncreated, self-existent, infinite Spirit, who I think belongs in a different category of Being entirely). I believe all finite beings are embodied in some way - even angels (and I believe all non-human angels are holy). As for “demons,” I don’t think they have any real existence; I see them as having their origin in the minds of pagans, and that views concerning them were adopted by the Jewish people during the intertestamental period. When Christ and his apostles spoke of demons and unclean spirits and people being “possessed” by them I believe they were simply using the vernacular of the day to speak of that which the “demons” were thought to produce (i.e., insanity and other health abnormalities that were largely unexplained at that time). Some of my views concerning this topic can be read on this thread:

Should we form universalist congregations? (see also subsequent posts)

Pratt wrote:
Once the doctrines are affirmed, of God’s essential existence as Spirit superordinate to the Incarnation, and of Christ’s active preaching to the spirits in hades/sheol (especially in order to lead them out!), then while some type of soul sleep may still be true, the simple denial of the conscious and active existence of spirits in hades/sheol must be concurrently rejected.

I disagree with Jason’s understanding of “the spirits in prison.” I understand the word “spirits” in 1Pet 3:19 just as I understand it in 1John 4 - i.e., I undersand the word to literally stand for a person’s mental disposition or thinking (see 1Cor 2:11; Eph 4:23; Phil 1:27; 1Pet 3:4), but here refers to the persons themselves (by the figure of speech metonymy). Peter is not talking about “disembodied spirits,” but mortal people who were in bondage to sin (Isa 42:6-7; 61:1) - i.e., the depraved people of Noah’s generation (v. 20). Jesus didn’t personally preach to these people; it was the “spirit of Christ” in Noah which preached to that generation many years before the birth of Christ (see 1Pet 1:11; 2Pet 1:21; 2:5). It was by means of the Holy Spirit given to people that they were able to speak as though Christ were actually present (cf. Eph 2:17, where Christ is represented as having preached to people to whom he didn’t personally preach).

Hope that helps.

[Todd]

John,
I think what I’m trying to express is the reality of how hard it is for us to connect. Similarly, as people see us Universalists who believe hell is not forever, it’s hard for us EU to see how people don’t believe in hell at all.

Aug,

To say that the Ultra-universalist does not believe in hell is a mischaracterization IMO. I don’t believe in post-mortem punishments, but I do believe in “hell.” Hell occurs for the unbeliever in this life when he endures the consequences of his sins. Shame, contempt, anxiety, fear, broken relationships, distrust, tribulation, anguish, etc. are all things suffered by the sinner on this side of the grave. This is what Christ and the Apostles were warning of.

Todd

[Aaron37]

Todd.

Show us from the Word of God where Jesus and the Apostles taught that hell was on earth for the unbeliever. So, if Hell is on earth does that mean that all born again children of God endure Hell with the unbeliever? Biblical Hell is makes this fallen world we live in look like disney land. It really amazes me of the doctrines that are being pushed on this board. There is so much non-sense that is going on between people who claim to be a born again child of God. ( Not aimed directly at you Todd, but in general in the body of Christ).

[John]

Jesus didn’t personally preach to these people; it was the “spirit of Christ” in Noah which preached to that generation many years before the birth of Christ (see 1Pet 1:11; 2Pet 1:21; 2:5). It was by means of the Holy Spirit given to people that they were able to speak as though Christ were actually present…

I certainly don’t share your stance with regard to soul sleep, however that was nicely done Aaron! That is the best rendering of what I believe, the correct view and I have copied it to file. It drives me nuts, to see Universalist argue with the ET-ers by using the 1Pet 3:19,20 scriptures the way they do. It is as if they are confirming the existence of a Hell, by Christ going to Hell to preach. What a mess!

Be blessed,

John

[Aaron37]

John.

Jesus did go to hell, but not to preach to the unbelieving in Noah’s day. There is a literal hell regardless if you don’t believe it. You unbelief does not change the truth being true.

[Aaron]

John wrote:
It drives me nuts, to see Universalist argue with the ET-ers by using the 1Pet 3:19,20 scriptures the way they do. It is as if they are confirming the existence of a Hell, by Christ going to Hell to preach. What a mess!

I agree, and I’m thrilled to know we actually have some common ground (besides both being universalists, of course!).

[John]

I agree, and I’m thrilled to know we actually have some common ground (besides both being universalists, of course!).

I appreciate you brother, and I believe you would be surprised by, how many things you express, that I agree with. With forums it is the nature of the beast, that we choose those things we differ on, to discuss. Whether the “forums” or “we” are the “beast” I’ll let you decide.

[JeffA]

Thanks for the reply earlier John The university where I work has a number of notable physicists and even a Nobel prize winner (genetics), and they are always cagy about picking up bits and pieces of theories (I’m guilty of it myself) and framing an entire worldview based upon some aspect of it.

For instance I mentioned the plasma universe theory to one who is working on a form of modified Newtonian gravitation (he doesn’t believe dark matter exists) and he said that at the moment for him it just didn’t fit the bill - yet some will use it as a basis for proving their religious ideas because some aspects of the theory would allow for this time/eternity business - giving physical properties that could be a mechanism for biblical happenings and descriptions.

I do it myself from the opposite stance so I’m not pointing any fingers as I include myself - it seems we decide our world-view from the mish-mash of our life experiences and then set about picking those aspects of scientific theory that best fit with that pre-determined world-view.

[John]

Jeff, they are mostly theories aren’t they. I think some of the evidence in the experiments however gives us insight though. The theories maybe give us hope. I watched a marvelous talk on quantum entanglement last night. There are the mathematicians and physicists crunching numbers into theories but also real mechanical experiments giving phenomenal evidence.

The discoveries and theories in science thrill my soul as they help me envision the reality of the spiritual world.

be blessed my friend,

John

[firstborn888]

I think the general populace receives blessing/punishment through cause/effect and sowing/reaping and the spiritually aware get it by a fully awakened conscience as well. That fully awakened conscience stuff will whip the soul’s butt with a belt (OUCH!). And don’t worry, there’s plenty of pain to go around for all.

[Melchizedek]

I am personally beginning to think that the reason that the scripture precisely points out that we are to “…not be decieved, for God is not mocked; a man reaps what he sows.” is because the implication of the rest of scripture (correctly translated and understood) is that there is no postmortem punishment, regardless of what our traditions have taught us certain passages mean.

But what about those who just seem to get away with stuff? Well, maybe only we/ they think they’re getting away with it.

I think that perhaps there is punishment in this life that many may not even be aware of; but when we see Him face to face, as He truly is and all of our illusions crumble to dust, we will see what could have been, though we were unaware of it at the time.

A personal example is that I thought for years that I was getting away with certain actions, attitudes and behaviors. Now however, I’m beginning to see them come back to bite me, and there’s no escaping it now. I’m beginning to see how wrong I was, and I’m suffering for it now. I was all along too, I just didn’t realize it acutely until now.

I deal with this concept physiologically with my patients all the time. By the time someone comes to me with obvious symptoms, invariably things have been going on beneath the surface and their notice for years, but they were there, affecting them all the time, just not consciously until things reached a certain point…

[auggybendoggy]

As I’ve worked through this thread I remain unconvinced on several issues. The first is that Aaron37 raises a valid point about the question of those who do believe are they subject to hell? And if so then what exactly is the difference. Better stated, when I read “we’re all children of God” - I agree but only from a certain point of view. From the same scripture comes the cold fact that ONLY those who believe does he give the right to be called children of God; The pharisees were sons of satan…can you be born of God and born of the devil? I don’t think so.

The point being is that I believe Ultra Universalism displays a misbalance of scripture. Taking salvation and applying it to all in a sense where faith is un-necessary YET is necessary. I believe Talbott and Macdonald make far better sense of the text in their espousing the idea that faith is necessary and apart of this there is only wrath. I also find no evidence that those who die ALWAYS come to faith immediatley and face no judgement. For certainly the warnings are clear and serious.

I also remain uncconvinced that the lack of joy is the wrath of God. Rather I find that the wrath of God is not something to just simply missed but to be expereiences in a full measure. And the picture painted (of God’s wrath) is not one of oh too bad for you, but I’ll break your very bones.

The position that Angels are embodied is a bit unusual to me. Certainly in the account of the burning bush the Angel of the lord did not have a brain or body yet spoke. And when Jesus calls Demons spirits which require fasting, I hardly think it means they don’t exist nor that they have bodies and jumped into another person.

There is so much evidence against such notions I almost can’t even begin to list, but that would be unfair to just claim that. Thus I will start different topics for each of these. I will continue pursuing the issue of port mortem punishent.