I think quantum physics is used as a catch-all by the religious as a means for the miraculous to somehow be possible. Unfortunately they normally start applying the quantun effects that operate at micro levels to the macro world - so for instance Jesus could have really walked through walls by making his atoms do something at the ‘quantum’ level - well sorry it doesn’t work like that at the macro level.
This is interesting. For the record, based on this terminology, I am an Ultra-Universalist.
Todd
No, I don’t think God would have been ok with it, because, again, they still would have been engaging in something that was based on a falsehood. But I think the seriousness of the sin was due to its association with paganism.
Concerning Saul and the medium, I do believe that Samuel actually made an appearance; I just don’t think he appeared in a disembodied state: “Them Which Are Asleep”
Jeff you are probably referring to this paragraph of mine quoted below. First of all let me apologize for not being clear with my use of Quantum Physics. I hope to explain better my use of the subject, following the quoted paragraph.
I agree with you and even cringe when I see the term “quantum” used as a “catch all” often by New Age types. I am far from those, as I use what little I know of Quantum Physics, as I do other things in nature. That being, nature is a shadow or reflection of the heavenly.
Now as far as the relationship of the micro to the macro, I believe you sell the relation short. Discoveries into the workings of the micro are the discoveries of the workings of the universe. Quantum Physics is tied closely to Cosmology.
In my message, I used the “shadow” of nature’s quantum to reflect the continued workings of God toward man in another time and another space. Quantum discoveries show us that particles can move backwards as well as forwards in time and appear in all possible places at once. That is the shadow or type I use to give support of the Cross having process in other times and in other places, IE at deaths occurrence or even in heaven itself. Throw in the scientific evidence that in the universe there is faster-than-light transfers of information and we see the shadow of a thousand years being realized as a day. What may seem as an instant work in one realm may be a thousand year work in other realm.
I have asked a number of times with regard to those that promote an instant resurrection, “do you have time and events in your heaven? Do you have time and events occurring after your resurrection?”
I ask that, because I propose heaven is full of times and events which demonstrate process and goal. I also see resurrection being a process far from instant. As I have said before these that, carry an “instant rapture type mentality” want to circumvent the process of the cross, which is the process of resurrection. They are wonderfully bound together. In the passage of time, we die a little(cross) and that same little is like wise made alive(resurrection). Our crucifixion and resurrection is a process. With the term resurrection, I speak of the carnal soul(seat of the flesh) being reconstituted and reconciled with the mind of Christ. Further more, I do not see the breathing of our last breath, as the end of this process, as some allude by their doctrines of “soul sleep” or “instant resurrection meeting our last earthly breath.” There must be the experience of the cross realized and that takes time. That cross-time would surely to be missing, with regard to the unrepentant soul breathing his last breath and being whisked away into mindless soul sleep or instant resurrection. Some time and in some place after man’s physical demise man’s soul must have it’s time for the experiencing of the cross which proportionally births our resurrection. Time, is even part of the cross, thus I believe as long as their is a time and events, there will be the workings of the cross. Does heaven have both time and is it a place? Surely it has both for that gives the very meaning and substance to the term “body” whether resurrected or mortal. Let’s go further with those that believe the substance of our mortal mortal bodies are reconstituted and made immortal. Seems to me with that concept, the mortal body has to have Christ’s immortal resurrection life in in from the git go. Matter is spiritual, and I have argued that for a many years.
So much with regard to rightly dividing the truth , it is always about perspective and depends on who is doing the observing. Which takes us further into the discoveries of the quantum, where it has been shown our consciousness affects the behavior of particles of matter. As I said, it is important to know who is doing the looking and what is being thought with regards to man relationship in God?
I also deduce and have seen with my own eyes, all forum discussions on the subject of “resurrection” become lengthy, as with no end in sight, while also demonstrating a propensity to split into other a plethora of new discussions. Maybe such strange behavior has it’s shadow in quantum theory that proposes the universe is splitting, every Planck-time (10 E-43 seconds) into billions of parallel universes. 
Yes, out there or better said, "within us, is already a place, to be later realized, called “heaven and earth met”. This inward place must surely contain our resurrected body, whether you realize it or not.
In closing, I can consciously imagine in another world, in another time RanRan will instantly take this, which I have written, and stick it up his arse and chew on it, and then pronounce it “worthy!” In this present disordered world I can only expect his customary derogatory comment. Please also note, if my message is ignored and ridiculed here, I am splitting for another world which I am sure, is filled with a people that will esteem and love me greatly after reading my thoughts. 
Such are the thoughts and life of the suffering mystic,
John
PS Interesting enough, many physicists with the recent discoveries in the quantum are arguing that reverse time travel is what actually happens in reality. That might make sense of all the “re” words that fill ourTheology.
Aaron,
I see that JP has already raised the issues I have (and more). I also noticed that no one persued Pratt’s arguments. Seems a bit like my posts that the spirits or demons which have mental capacity without a body (thus needing to posess a body) was not addressed.
Pratt wrote:
and
Now I’m not near as well spoken as Pratt but I would like to see you tackle this one Aaron. JP alludes the to very point in his first sentence (2nd quote).
Looking foward to your response.
Aug
Well, I don’t believe in “disembodied” beings (and God is not disembodied because he never had a body; he’s an uncreated, self-existent, infinite Spirit, who I think belongs in a different category of Being entirely). I believe all finite beings are embodied in some way - even angels (and I believe all non-human angels are holy). As for “demons,” I don’t think they have any real existence; I see them as having their origin in the minds of pagans, and that views concerning them were adopted by the Jewish people during the intertestamental period. When Christ and his apostles spoke of demons and unclean spirits and people being “possessed” by them I believe they were simply using the vernacular of the day to speak of that which the “demons” were thought to produce (i.e., insanity and other health abnormalities that were largely unexplained at that time). Some of my views concerning this topic can be read on this thread:
Should we form universalist congregations? (see also subsequent posts)
I disagree with Jason’s understanding of “the spirits in prison.” I understand the word “spirits” in 1Pet 3:19 just as I understand it in 1John 4 - i.e., I undersand the word to literally stand for a person’s mental disposition or thinking (see 1Cor 2:11; Eph 4:23; Phil 1:27; 1Pet 3:4), but here refers to the persons themselves (by the figure of speech metonymy). Peter is not talking about “disembodied spirits,” but mortal people who were in bondage to sin (Isa 42:6-7; 61:1) - i.e., the depraved people of Noah’s generation (v. 20). Jesus didn’t personally preach to these people; it was the “spirit of Christ” in Noah which preached to that generation many years before the birth of Christ (see 1Pet 1:11; 2Pet 1:21; 2:5). It was by means of the Holy Spirit given to people that they were able to speak as though Christ were actually present (cf. Eph 2:17, where Christ is represented as having preached to people to whom he didn’t personally preach).
Hope that helps.
Aug,
To say that the Ultra-universalist does not believe in hell is a mischaracterization IMO. I don’t believe in post-mortem punishments, but I do believe in “hell.” Hell occurs for the unbeliever in this life when he endures the consequences of his sins. Shame, contempt, anxiety, fear, broken relationships, distrust, tribulation, anguish, etc. are all things suffered by the sinner on this side of the grave. This is what Christ and the Apostles were warning of.
Todd
Todd.
Show us from the Word of God where Jesus and the Apostles taught that hell was on earth for the unbeliever. So, if Hell is on earth does that mean that all born again children of God endure Hell with the unbeliever? Biblical Hell is makes this fallen world we live in look like disney land. It really amazes me of the doctrines that are being pushed on this board. There is so much non-sense that is going on between people who claim to be a born again child of God. ( Not aimed directly at you Todd, but in general in the body of Christ).
I certainly don’t share your stance with regard to soul sleep, however that was nicely done Aaron! That is the best rendering of what I believe, the correct view and I have copied it to file. It drives me nuts, to see Universalist argue with the ET-ers by using the 1Pet 3:19,20 scriptures the way they do. It is as if they are confirming the existence of a Hell, by Christ going to Hell to preach. What a mess!
Be blessed,
John
John.
Jesus did go to hell, but not to preach to the unbelieving in Noah’s day. There is a literal hell regardless if you don’t believe it. You unbelief does not change the truth being true.
I agree, and I’m thrilled to know we actually have some common ground (besides both being universalists, of course!). 
I appreciate you brother, and I believe you would be surprised by, how many things you express, that I agree with. With forums it is the nature of the beast, that we choose those things we differ on, to discuss. Whether the “forums” or “we” are the “beast” I’ll let you decide.
Thanks for the reply earlier John The university where I work has a number of notable physicists and even a Nobel prize winner (genetics), and they are always cagy about picking up bits and pieces of theories (I’m guilty of it myself) and framing an entire worldview based upon some aspect of it.
For instance I mentioned the plasma universe theory to one who is working on a form of modified Newtonian gravitation (he doesn’t believe dark matter exists) and he said that at the moment for him it just didn’t fit the bill - yet some will use it as a basis for proving their religious ideas because some aspects of the theory would allow for this time/eternity business - giving physical properties that could be a mechanism for biblical happenings and descriptions.
I do it myself from the opposite stance so I’m not pointing any fingers as I include myself - it seems we decide our world-view from the mish-mash of our life experiences and then set about picking those aspects of scientific theory that best fit with that pre-determined world-view.
Jeff, they are mostly theories aren’t they. I think some of the evidence in the experiments however gives us insight though. The theories maybe give us hope. I watched a marvelous talk on quantum entanglement last night. There are the mathematicians and physicists crunching numbers into theories but also real mechanical experiments giving phenomenal evidence.
The discoveries and theories in science thrill my soul as they help me envision the reality of the spiritual world.
be blessed my friend,
John
I think the general populace receives blessing/punishment through cause/effect and sowing/reaping and the spiritually aware get it by a fully awakened conscience as well. That fully awakened conscience stuff will whip the soul’s butt with a belt (OUCH!). And don’t worry, there’s plenty of pain to go around for all.
I am personally beginning to think that the reason that the scripture precisely points out that we are to “…not be decieved, for God is not mocked; a man reaps what he sows.” is because the implication of the rest of scripture (correctly translated and understood) is that there is no postmortem punishment, regardless of what our traditions have taught us certain passages mean.
But what about those who just seem to get away with stuff? Well, maybe only we/ they think they’re getting away with it.
I think that perhaps there is punishment in this life that many may not even be aware of; but when we see Him face to face, as He truly is and all of our illusions crumble to dust, we will see what could have been, though we were unaware of it at the time.
A personal example is that I thought for years that I was getting away with certain actions, attitudes and behaviors. Now however, I’m beginning to see them come back to bite me, and there’s no escaping it now. I’m beginning to see how wrong I was, and I’m suffering for it now. I was all along too, I just didn’t realize it acutely until now.
I deal with this concept physiologically with my patients all the time. By the time someone comes to me with obvious symptoms, invariably things have been going on beneath the surface and their notice for years, but they were there, affecting them all the time, just not consciously until things reached a certain point…
As I’ve worked through this thread I remain unconvinced on several issues. The first is that Aaron37 raises a valid point about the question of those who do believe are they subject to hell? And if so then what exactly is the difference. Better stated, when I read “we’re all children of God” - I agree but only from a certain point of view. From the same scripture comes the cold fact that ONLY those who believe does he give the right to be called children of God; The pharisees were sons of satan…can you be born of God and born of the devil? I don’t think so.
The point being is that I believe Ultra Universalism displays a misbalance of scripture. Taking salvation and applying it to all in a sense where faith is un-necessary YET is necessary. I believe Talbott and Macdonald make far better sense of the text in their espousing the idea that faith is necessary and apart of this there is only wrath. I also find no evidence that those who die ALWAYS come to faith immediatley and face no judgement. For certainly the warnings are clear and serious.
I also remain uncconvinced that the lack of joy is the wrath of God. Rather I find that the wrath of God is not something to just simply missed but to be expereiences in a full measure. And the picture painted (of God’s wrath) is not one of oh too bad for you, but I’ll break your very bones.
The position that Angels are embodied is a bit unusual to me. Certainly in the account of the burning bush the Angel of the lord did not have a brain or body yet spoke. And when Jesus calls Demons spirits which require fasting, I hardly think it means they don’t exist nor that they have bodies and jumped into another person.
There is so much evidence against such notions I almost can’t even begin to list, but that would be unfair to just claim that. Thus I will start different topics for each of these. I will continue pursuing the issue of port mortem punishent.
Also, I mean to say there seems to be so much evidence. I don’t mean to sound like I know. I simply mean post mortem punishment makes more sense of the warnings at this time.
Aug
Actually, the ultra-universalist position doesn’t require that all people presently be considered “children of God” in an equal sense. While I do think there is a sense in which God is the Father of all people (which even many non-ultras would affirm), I do not think everyone can be called God’s children (nor can God be called their Father) in the sense that is most emphasized in the NT (i.e., in the sense of our being like God in our moral character, by our faith in Christ).
My understanding is that faith (which is “the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen”) will remain necessary for our salvation from sin only for as long as it is possible to exercise it. But when that in which we presently hope is fully realized, it will no longer be possible to exercise faith. For instance, I have faith that the risen Christ is going to save all people on the last day of his reign by raising them immortal and subjecting them to himself. My faith in this yet-unrealized fact fills me with hope and has a purifying effect on my character and affections. But when that in which I presently have faith ultimately comes to pass, my faith will be replaced by sight. No longer will I be able (or need) to believe this in order to experience salvation from sin’s bondage.
The ultra position does not require that one understand the wrath of God to consist only in “negative happiness.” In most cases, I would argue that in addition to missing out on spiritual blessings like joy and peace, God’s wrath consists of the positive suffering that people experience in this world as a result of their sin (which may include physical pain like broken bones, but most likely includes one or more of the following “spiritual” experiences of the condemned: guilt, emotional/psychological distress, uneasiness, dissatisfaction, fear, despair, etc.).
Perhaps the fire in the bush was simply the means by which the angel manifested his presence to Moses while keeping his actual, physical form hidden from Moses’ sight. Why the angel would choose not to reveal his true form to Moses at this time is a mystery to me, but I don’t see why this isn’t a possibility.
I don’t think the fact that Jesus spoke of demons as they were spoken of by the Jewish people at that time is evidence that he or the Gospel writers understood demons to have an actual existence. Don’t you think it’s at least possible that Jesus and the apostles were employing the common language of the day concerning demons without necessarily sanctioning the ideas that the language expressed (and perhaps ascribing a different meaning to the words)? And don’t you think it’s curious that the Jewish people in the OT didn’t speak of demons as they are so frequently spoken of in the NT?
I look forward to discussing these topics with you further!
Aaron, as always. You’re a super fun discussion. A few comments to continuing this topic and I’ll continue/start threads concerning the other topics. I’ll drop the demonology discsussion here and continue with the wrath issue.
I can appreciate your view of being able to view that not all people are children of God - From a certain point of view. I think the probelm I’ve had so far with Ultras is that they usually use that against us EU to dictate that God indeed will not punish his children after this life. Technically, I would hinge the decision on whether people die not being saved of having faith and I would call it naive (not to be rude) to think people do. But as I am begining to understand your Ultra a bit more I’ll assume you would agree.
As I now understand Ultra, it does require that upon the ressurection, there will be no more room to either have faith nor not have faith. Everyone will see and believe and the ambiguities and dillusions will be dissolved.
I think these questions will illustrate and give clarity to the difference between EU and UU.
Aug