The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Who Goes to Hell? Eternal Criminals

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

Man is a Eternal Being. He belongs to the same class as God. If he dies a criminal, then he enters Eternity as an eternal criminal. There must be a prison; the criminals must be segregated. If they were permitted to roam indiscriminately through Eternity, they would demoralize the New Heavens and New Earth.

We have jails, State prisons, and Federal prisons for time criminals who break the law of man. Who can raise a protest against God if He has a prison in which are incarcerated the men and women who violate the laws of Heaven, and who are eternal criminals? The universal human believes in some kind of Hell and place of confinement for punishment after death, and this testimony is not easily ruled of of court. There is no type of testimony so convincing to a jury and judge as the testimony of universal consciousness. There must be some basis of fact for this universal belief.

All primitive peoples believe that Good people go to some kind of Heaven and that Evil go into confinement. We may believe in a literal Lake of Fire and Brimstone or that the term is only used to illustrate the torture and misery of confinement and separation from God. Man does not go to Hell because of what he does, but because of what he is. Man goes to Hell on purely intellectual grounds; he can evade it if he wishes. He goes to Hell today in the face of modern civilization with his eyes wide open, and because he prefers Hell to Heaven. He goes there, because he has served Satan, and because He prefers Satan as his god to the God and Father of our Jesus Christ. Sin is more attractive to him, and Hell, is more desirable than Heaven is. :frowning: :open_mouth:

Source: E W Kenyon.

#2

this is unscriptural,

And God said, Behold, Adam is become as one of us, to know good and evil and now lest at any time he stretch forth his hand, and take of the tree of life and eat, and so he shall live in perpetuity.
Genesis 3:22

By cutting of men from the tree of life, God prevented obviously men to exist as sinners perpetually, God alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). This argumention is soleley based on the fallacy that men have an immortal soul, this I consider to be a devilish lie (Genesis 3:4), the heresy of heresies concerning eschatology.

On earthly courts one goal is to reform criminals - or at least should be, the “Orthodox” understanding of hell seem to reject any reforming effect of God’s punishment, why is this so? - The bible states “when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness” (Isaiah 26:9).

Earthly courts also know capital punishment - why should God not execute a capital punishment instead of inflicting everlasting torment? God is the cause of all things, only He is eternal and immortal, nothing can exist outside His will and He can make cease everything to exist if this were His will - God were not God if He could not destroy what He has created, scripture states that God can destroy body and soul (Matthew 10:28).

Everlasting torment can only exist if it is God’s will that some men suffer everlastingly, this were however contrary to Scripture (e.g. Ezekiel 18:23).

this is also a very common but unscriptural notion of eternity in my opinion, but to discuss this here would go to far.

I found out, that most people, who are no believers but in some way spiritually, heavily reject the idea of endless torment and rather believe in a kind of universalism and reforming punishment. The “Orthodox Christian” idea of hell seem to be uniqe in the history of mankind for its absoluteness according to Georges Minois (author of Histoire de l’enfer, German title “Die Hoelle” - there seem to be no English translation available).

#3

Hey Sven. Man is created in the likeness and the image of God (Gen 1:26). God is spirit (John 4:24), Man is spirit, that has a soul, that lives in a body. ( 1 Thess 5:23). God has set Eternity in the heart( or soul) of every man (Ecclesiastes 3:11). So, yes, we are eternal beings that will spend eternity in one of two places: Heaven or Hell. Where you spend it determines by your response to the Cross of Jesus Christ. This life is just a warm up to the eternal life or death of every single person who has lived or will live.

#4

Hi Born Again

If you have time let us know a bit about yourself over in the Introductions forum - but welcome anyway!

#5

men have neither omniscience nor omnipotence, both are divine attributes such as immortality and eternity, if men have neither omniscience nor omnipotence though they are created in the image of God, why should they have immortality and eternity?

For the condition of the children of men, and the condition of beasts are even as one condition unto them. As the one dieth, so dieth the other: for they have all one spirit, and there is no excellency of man above the beast: for all is vanity. (Ecclesiastes 3:19)

kind regards

#6

Born Again do you believe in the pre-existence of souls? For a human being to be Eternal they would have to have no beginning and no end (which is usually only claimed for God - however many persons that is taken to be). Surely Biblically all men have a beginning at least before which they didn’t exist? They may become immortal but having a beginning but becoming endless isn’t the same as being Eternal is it?

#7

Hey Sven.
In 1 Thess 5:23 Paul disclosed the fact that man is a triune being, consisting of a spirit, soul, and body. The spirit is the real you or the real man created in the image of God. The soul includes the reasoning faculties. Man’s soul and body fit for his life upon this material universe which has been created for him. The real man is spirit. Man was to walk with God in fellowship with the Father-God in His realm, which is the realm of the spirit. Your body is not you. Your mind is not you. You have a mind which you use. You possess a body which you use. Your mind and body are merely the instruments of your spirit, the real YOU.

#8

the bible does however never say that the spirit is immortal or that it can live without body; interestingly, while the soul is often mentioned in connection with Sheol [Hades](e.g. Psalm 16:10), the spirit is never mentioned in connection with Sheol or Gehenna, but the bible says that at death the spirit returns to God (Eccl. 12:7), no seperation is here made between the spirits of the righteous and the wicked.

I understand the biblical anthropology that body + spirit = living soul, as the body cannot live without spirit and is therefore dead (James 2:26) the spirit cannot live without body and the soul does not exist on its own.

#9

Hey JeffA.

See my response to sven. Pre-existing souls? What do you mean?

#10

Jesus said you must be born again or born from above to see the kingdom of God or you will see the kingdom of Satan.

#11

Yes, the kingdom lasts a 1000 years, those who are not born-again will not reign with him during that time.

Again, irrelevant points concerning unviersalist thought, only a progression some will endure called AIONIOS KOLASIS.

#12

You say our being made in God’s image is tied to the fact that “God is Spirit” and that “man is spirit.” But I’m not familiar with any verse is all of Scripture where we are told that “man IS spirit.” I read that we have spirits (and the word has more than one meaning depending on the context), but not that we “are” spirit. Moreover, animals have a “spirit” as well (Gen 7:15-22; Eccl 3:19; etc.). Are they too made in the image of God? Animals are also referred to as being “souls” (Gen 1:20-21, 24; Rev 16:3) as well as having “souls” (see Lev 17:11, where the same word is translated both “life” and “soul”). Do they too share God’s likeness? And are they too “eternal” beings?

Born Again, man bears God’s image and is superior to animals not because of what he is made of, but instead of how he is made. The “image” and “likeness” of God in which humans were made (Gen. 1:27) is our created (and thus natural) capacity to be like God by exercising our will over creation, and thereby having dominion over the animal kingdom (see Gen 1:26, 28). Inseparable from this aspect of our nature is our capacity to have a knowledge of God and his ways (cf. Psalm 49:20 and 2 Peter 1:3-4). Unlike the rest of the animal kingdom, humans have the inherent capacity to be motivationally governed by that which governs the actions of both God and his Son (i.e., love). Our capacity both to know and understand God and to be like him in a moral sense (i.e., to “partake of the divine nature” – 2 Pet 1:4) is the fact that distinguishes us from the beasts. This unique aspect of our nature is the result of our having been “fearfully and wonderfully made” (Psalm 139:14) - not with a fabled “immortal soul” (of which the Bible does not speak) but with a brain that possesses a much greater complexity of organization than is possessed by any other earthly creature that God has made, giving us the amazing capacity for a rational, first-person perspective - which makes love possible.

And it’s interesting that you limit our shared likeness with God to the fact that we have spirits, for (as you quote) Paul speaks of our having a “body, soul and spirit.” But if what we’re made of is tied to our bearing God’s image, then this would imply that, when God created us in his image, he too had a body, soul and spirit. Is this what you affirm?

In Eccl 3:11, everything Solomon is talking about is that which takes place “under heaven.” He’s talking about life in this temporal realm – that which is done “under the sun.” When the writer speaks of “what God has done” in this verse, he’s referring to that which God had already done in the ages of redemptive history, and does not pertain to “eternity” but to long duration in this temporal world (which has a “beginning” and an “end” - hence the author’s use of these words in this verse). “Eternity” is a poor translation of the Hebrew “olam,” as the word simply denotes indefinite duration of time, the end of which is not in view. The fact that God has “set olam in our hearts” means nothing more than this: in spite of our inability to discern “what God has done from the beginning to the end” (which again refers to God’s involvement in this temporal creation over the course of history) we are still able to appreciate and marvel at things “under heaven” that last longer than our own short life-spans.

#13

Hey Aaron.
I will just copy my above response to sven for you.

In 1 Thess 5:23 Paul disclosed the fact that man is a triune being, consisting of a spirit, soul, and body. The spirit is the real you or the real man created in the image of God. The soul includes the reasoning faculties. Man’s soul and body fit for his life upon this material universe which has been created for him. The real man is spirit. Man was to walk with God in fellowship with the Father-God in His realm, which is the realm of the spirit. Your body is not you. Your mind is not you. You have a mind which you use. You possess a body which you use. Your mind and body are merely the instruments of your spirit, the real YOU.

#14

I’m saying that for men to be eternal they have to have existed before they were born otherwise although they may achieve endless life they will never have had beginingless life.

#15

JeffA.

Man is eternal because God is eternal. We are made in his image, spirit. God is spirit. ( John 4:24). Man is spirit, that has a soul, that lives in a body.( 1 Thess 5:23) Man was to walk with God in fellowship with the Father-God in His realm, which is the realm of the spirit. Your body is not you. Your mind is not you. You have a mind which you use. You possess a body which you use. Your mind and body are merely the instruments of your spiritman, the real YOU.

I do believe God knows who you are before you are born ( Jeremiah 1:5), but you do not exist prior to being born into this world. You do not exist until you were formed in your mothers womb by your fathers seed.

#16

Eternal does not mean what people think it means, that is only a word used in place of AIONIOS in the Scriptures. The word is AIONIOS means Age-abiding, Age-enduring, Age-lasting, etc. an adjective that actually has no latin/english literal translation. It does not mean without beginning, it does not mean without end, it means it may or may not have beginning or end, but not limited to it.

It is because it is, it lasts as long as it lasts, a Greek thought which was represented by the adjective AIONIOS but foreign to the English language.

#17

Jeff makes a very good point, Born Again. “Eternal” is a poor choice of words to describe man. And if by “eternal” you mean “immortal,” man doesn’t become immortal until he is resurrected.

Do you have any Scripture to back up this assertion, Born Again?

If by “soul” you mean the human self (which necessarily includes the brain), then yeah, the “soul includes the reasoning faculties.” The word often denotes the entire person themselves. In Leviticus 5:1-4, a soul (nephash) can see, hear, touch and speak with lips. In Leviticus 7:20-27, it is said that souls can eat. In Deut 14:26, it is said that souls can hunger and thirst. In Jeremiah 2:34, souls are said to have blood. We are further told that souls can be strangled or snared (Prov. 18:7; 22:25; Job 7:15), torn to pieces by lions (Psalm 7:2) or utterly destroyed by the sword (Josh 11:11; cf. Josh. 10:30-39; Eze. 22:27; Prov. 6:32; Lev. 23:30). “Soul” can also denote that which is common to, and characteristic of, all sentient creatures, such as “desire” or “appetite” (see Ex 15:9; Deut 23:24; Ps 27:12; Prov 6:30, 23:2; Eccl 6:7, 9; Jer 22:27; Micah 7:3; Hab 2:5). Because the Hebrew and Greek words translated “soul” (nephesh and psuche, respectively) can denote both a sentient creature and those attributes that are common to sentient creatures (such as desire and life), there is occasionally some overlap in meaning between them and the words translated “spirit” (ruach/pneuma). For example, whenever “body” (soma) and “soul” (psuche) are distinguished in the NT (e.g., in Matt 6:25), “soul” stands for the natural life that is common to all biological beings (which must be sustained by food and water, and can be “lost” if one dies, or “saved” if one is kept alive). When body, soul and spirit are distinguished in the NT (e.g., in 1 Thess 5:23), “soul” likely denotes the seat of the desires, emotions and appetites (again, that which is common to all sentient creatures), while “spirit” refers to the mind or mental disposition of a person (which, for humans, would not exist without a brain).

1 Like
#18

Where are we told in Scripture that the “real man” is “spirit?”

I agree that man will one day “walk with God in fellowship” in “his realm,” but not until we’re resurrected (John 14:3; cf. John 13:22) - and we’re not going to be raised as “spirits.”

Can you support this with Scripture, please?

#19

Also Born Again, I do not think your response to Sven addressed my response to you. If you have time, I would appreciate it if you’d please respond to the following:

Thanks,
Aaron

#20

Hey Aaron.
1 Thess 5:23 Paul begins with spirit, soul and body. There in order for a reason. What Paul is disclosing is that we are a spirit, that has a soul, that lives in a body. No, animals do not have a spirit, they only have a soul and body. God said lets make man in our image. There is one God made up in 3 persons. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. He is Eternal. Man is triune in the fact that he is a spirit, that has a soul, that lives in a body. Man is Eternal. We were made in His image, because He is spirit, as we are.