The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Who is that great cloud of witnesses?

Practices Christian Living
#1

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. (Heb 12:1,2 ESV)

I have heard a good many preachers say that this “great cloud of witnesses” are the saints which “have gone on before”, and who are now in heaven watching us and “cheering us on.” Is that the understanding which you have most often heard expressed? Or perhaps I should ask, “Is this your understanding?”

I have a totally different understanding of the passage. But first I would like to read what you all think. Please state how you understand the passage and why.

#2

Paidion,

As you know, I’m agnostic about what happens in the interval between the physical death and the physical resurrection (though I do believe the physical resurrection is necessary.)

That said, in this passage I believe the great cloud of witnesses refers to the saints who’ve gone before us and set the example. The point is not that they’re watching us, but that we ought to be inspired by their witness to the faithfulness of God and their demonstrations of steadfast faithfulness toward God, their courage & etc.

Love, Cindy

#3

Thank you for your contribution, Cindy. Hopefully, others will comment, too. By the way, I corrected the reference. I don’t know why I initially wrote “Rom. 12:1,2”. Senior moment! (I can always use that for an excuse!)

#4

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: It starts young for me, alas. :frowning:

#5

Paidion
I’ve tended to believe that we are non-existent between death and physical resurrection (at the second coming) there being no intermediate state but existing only in the memory of God. I believed this before coming to UR and still do though not adamantly so. I can see arguments for and against.
Consequently I’m inclined to agree with Cindy,;Paul’s cloud of witnesses being the foregone saints (dead) whose example has led the way.
S

#6

Hi Paidion

I’d have thought that, given the ‘therefore’ with which Chapter 12 of Hebrews starts, the natural reading is that the writer is referring to all those great men and women of faith he’s just listed in the previous chapter.

It’s possible that these great Biblical figures are indeed portrayed as “looking down on us and cheering us on” from the heavenly bleachers, as it were. But I think it more likely that they are cited as exemplars of faith, as an encouragement to us to continue in our faith - in other words, they are witnesses to the power of faith, not - or not necessarily - witnesses to our faith struggle.

Indeed, the last two verses of Hebrews 11, vv 39-40, carry the clear implication that the eschatological destiny of these great people of faith - the communion of the saints, if you like - is inextricably bound up with our own: “These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.” Hence the importance of our continuing to ‘run the race’ of faith. Is there a hint of Universalism there, I wonder?

All the best

Johnny

#7

Thanks to all who have responded.

Several of us agree that the “cloud of witnesses” refers to those heroes of the faith whose deeds of valour are described in chapter 11 (as Johnny has expressed above).

In my opinion, the writer refers to ONLY those people. They bear witness to what can be accomplished through faith. Therefore, says the writer, we, through faith, need to continue to run the race, trusting in Jesus the founder and perfecter of our faith, in order to continue our struggle against sin so that we might be overcomers, coming not to a mountain such as Moses ascended, but to Mount Zion, and become part of the completed Church, the perfected sons of God for whose manifestation, the whole creation is groaning.

Back to the cloud of witnesses. Suppose we were concerned about the health of a person who is a heavy smoker. We might say to him, “Thousands of smokers have died from lung cancer or emphysema. There is a great crowd of witnesses to this fact.” This doesn’t imply that those smokers who have died from these diseases are in heaven" looking down" on smokers and encouraging them to stop, or in hell “looking up” at smokers and warning them that smoking will kill them. It’s simply that the way they died is a witness to the serious consequence of smoking. Similarly those men and women of faith whose exploits are described in Hebrews 11, witness to what can be accomplished through faith.