Actually no I wasn’t nor was it my intention. That is your interpretation
again that is your interpretation. My reply was to this,
in which I responded, “It’s not as simple as wanting to believe all go to heaven” meaning that there are farther more deeply rooted implications to believe or accept such a doctrine.
Here’s the entire post, your statements are (I believe)
Please tell me if I’m reading this wrong
You are quite right except you forgot to add, “our” gospel, “our” God ergo “our” interpretation. We are not in the same camp.
Then I state again your argument is fallacious that “We” just want to believe God saves all, otherwise I am correct in also saying “you” just want to believe God tortures most of humanity.
I will live with my wants, can you live with yours?
oxymoron wrote:
You are quite right except you forgot to add, “our” gospel, “our” God ergo “our” interpretation. We are not in the same camp.
Thats not a great starting point for a healthy conversation, but ok. Lets start with #4, why don’t you expound on that a little. Thats a big statement to make, so lets see some proof to back that statement.
Not sure how I missed this one but I did.
I would like to say that I whole-heartedly agree with the fact that universalism changes nature and attributes of our God, not to mention turns the gospel AS WE UNDERSTAND IT upside down.
In fact, I would like to THANK you for pointing this out. I’ve been ringing the “everything is the opposite” bell for quite some time now!! And you’re right, those who embrace UR, or US or U-GO-GOD . . .whatever we call it . … those who embrace it have to pretty much stand on their head to do so because the traditions of men have had everything backwards and upside down for years, so much so that the church doesn’t even recognize that “this” message is actually “upright” where as believing . . .now read this slowly, there’s no trickery here, but this is one profound fact about anti-UR believers . . .
what you want us to believe is . . .Jesus tells us to love our enemies because that’s manifesting the Father’s love. yes? But then you turn around and try to tell us it’s God’s will to either torture or completely destroy his enemies in hell forever. And that’s the unanswerable question. Why would God tell us to love our eneimies, if all he’s going to do is destroy his?
All “we” are trying to say is . . .love is not bound by logic and reason. It covers a multitude of sin … .IT NEVER FAILS . . .even though it was God’s will to save the world, the fact that 99.9% are lost in hell forever. I think if you took a poll on that 99.9% of the earth’s population that are in hell, if they believed that God succeeded in his plan to save them, I think your results would be . . .most displeasurable.
UR doesn’t change the attributes of God so much as it exemplifies them. I LOVE talking about it! It invigorates me when I think about just how great and mighty the cross truly is. Tradition wants to limit the power of the cross to only those that profess his name . . .But tradition can’t sustain itself upon it’s “self”. Self is the problem! Men have taken God’s greatest gift and they’ve made it about men rather than about the love of God. To say that if you don’t say the words of repentance then to hell with you is saying that the conscious mind takes precedence over the power of the cross. And the power of the cross can not reach beyond the mind of men . . . ticks me off how religion has gotten so many people “bound” by it’s law enforcments.
But the reason why things are turning upside down is not because of UR. UR is merely the visible manifestion of an invisible truth . . .the Sabbath has come and the rules are now THE OPPOSITE than the previous six days of labor where everything emphasized our works, our ministries, our rules, our regulations . . .and it worked in the day that we lived. But again, the days of labor are over . . .6,000 years have passed, we’re just entering now into the 7th and instead of labor, the tables have been turned because all laboring minds did was exploit religion for personal gain . . .that’s what that picture of Jesus turning the tables was all about . . .he was giving notice that the days of religious of exploitation were over. He was turning the tables . . .they claimed you had the right to hit another person if they hit you first. Jesus turned the tables . . .he said turn YOUR other cheek. They said if a woman be caught in the act of adultery that you should kill her . . .Jesus turned the tables and said “Let the most perfect one get first crack at her”
And now . . .you say God’s forgiveness only reaches those who acknowledge it . . .But Jesus turned the tables and he’s calling out to ALL WHO ARE WEARY . . .who have no intention or understanding of walking in the spirit. ALL WHO ARE HUNGRY . . .they have no manna in them THE DEAF who can’t hear his voice, THE BLIND who can’t see his face THE LAME who can’t walk in godliness on their own . …COME UNTO ME . . .I WILL GIVE YOU . . … hell???
I made no such statement. You have have stated that, not I.
I have no idea what this means?
#4 God centered vs man centered.
“man centered” - Universalism believes that God’s love is contingent on Him saving everyone.
“God centered” - We believe God is love no matter if he saves everyone, sends everyone to hell or annihilates everyone.
I am relieved that someone actually can see my point of view. I wasn’t attacking anything or anyone, just merely pointing out the differences and that we are two distinct camps.
As far as your criticism of tradition. Tradition is not bad in of itself-only suspect if it isn’t supported by scripture.
Oxymoron I can see how you might see UR as Man-Centered. It is true we believe that Love will not torment anyone forever, however does this mean that Ultimate Reconciliation is man-centered? It is by God’s will that the world is saved, not by anyone’s good works or by their choice. It is by Jesus Christ dying on the cross that all mankind is dragged to God. In fact I have found that UR gives God and his sacrifice more glory. Its all about God because without him nothing is saved, the more saved the more glory to God, and if all are saved well I say the honor due God’s name can never come to an end. Salvation is of the Lord, that is scripture, and if we believe it we must declare that the only reason anyone is saved is because of Him.
I do not say ‘if God does not save all he is not worthy of praise’, instead I say, ‘God will save all because he is worthy of all praise’. See the difference? I have faith in God that he will do what he has promised, if he doesn’t then he has lied, plain and simple. If He annihilates or torments all for eternity, so be it, he’s God he can do what he wants, but don’t pretend that this God is love, love does not act unbecomingly, it is kind and remembers no wrong.
just to throw my little spanner in.
universalism does not “change the nature of God” or whatever. that’s just silly talk.
what changes the nature of God is this nonsense we’ve been taught as truth for the best part of two millenia. i have tried and tried throughout my entire life to reconcile the God i knew (both experientially and Biblically) with the God that would damn people to eternal hell. there is no reconciliation of those two diametric opposites. the doctrine that God would be so horrible is the thing that would have Him change His nature.
the doctrine that God will not stop persuing us til He finds us is what is consistent with Scripture and does not change anything.
so i believe firmly that i have not “turned belief in the true God on its head” or however you want to put it, oxy. i believe i’ve taken an inverted image and flipped it round the right way. i believe this is born up by both the Scripture on a proof text level and by its metanarrative.
it’s taken me 30 years to get here. there’s no going back. never have i known God on this level, it’s like getting saved again!
Corpselight I loved your post as well. I hope you understand I was being a bit facetious in my opening remark about the idea that we’re changing the nature of God. My emphasis on that sentence wasn’t there, it was where it stated “As WE UNDERSTAND IT”. Meaning that when you take what you think you understand, turn it upside down, you’ll then see Truth being revealed. It’s not that we’re changing the nature of God, it’s the fact that the way “they’re” seeing it, is that we’re changing it. I totally agree that what we see is upside down to what’s being seen by others. I totally agree that we are changing God’s nature according to those who can not see.
Logic and reason will tell you not to get your “cart” before your “horse”. But in the kingdom of truth, everything is in the opposite place that our logic thinks it should be. In the kingdom, it is the cart “ark” that leads the horse (power). That’s what the deal was when Uzza was instantly struck dead when he tried to guide the ark due to the cart hitting a bump in the road.
God specifically instructed us NOT to get the ox before the ark. But in our realm that’s the only way you can pull the cart, is to get the horse (again, signifies power) before the ark (presense) and “pull” it in the direction “you” want it to go. The ark is supposed to be placed upon the shoulders of the priests . . .signifying that we’re to have the MIND OF CHRIST. The cart represents the labors of man, the traditions of men, the doctrines of religion in which they “contain” the ark, or try to contain it. And once they have it in their cart, “they” decide what direction they’re going to take. Even though, like David, they’re intentions may be pure and seemingly a good thing to do, their activity reveals their spiritual inability to see that God is not to be contained inside any man-made structure.
that was really a shocking moment . . .it was in the middle of a great parade of celebration . … TO GOD!!! People were singing, harps were playing . . .David was dancing . . .then the cart hit a bump . . .the man-made structure momentarily lost it’s center of balance by rolling over a protrusion of earthiness. In Uzza’s mind, he saw the ark falling off the cart . . .it didn’t actually happen but HIS MIND projected the image that it did. He saw something as though it was . . .is that not what faith is? But it wasn’t godly faith . . .it was dark faith . . .worry lives there . . .we see bad things that happen even though they don’t . . .it creates anxiety, even though it didn’t happen, we act as though it did. Even though the ark didn’t fall from the man-made cart, in Uzzah’s eyes, it did, and he reacted to the image in his mind.
That’s what religion does with the presence of God as well. Men’s minds project images of things that happen which have not happened and they respond to those images. They draw lines in the doctrines of what can be believed and what can’t. They decide how people should live and how they shouldn’t . . .they make their carts from what their minds interpret the Scritpures to say, rather than relying on the Word “in” their hearts. And because they’re minds are the source of the dark faith, their interpretations are affected by that as well. Truth intended to bring freedom turns into religion that brings bondage. And as a result, even if they’re celebrating their accomplishments, death occurs.
There is an order for the river of life to flow from our bellies . . .if we don’t step into the alignment of his order, our bellies will continue to be bound to the dust of the earth . . .to the flesh of carnality. But the good news to the story was, David learned what the order was, and he found the blessings that flowed from the river of life that was a result of him submitting his “self” to the alignment preordained by God.
it’s not about control, it’s about alignment. When we walk in the spirit, the river flows . . .when we walk in the flesh, the party is over.
oxymoron, this will be my last try, after this I will just leave it alone.
I listed 7 things from your post. #7 Its not as simple as wanting to believe all go to heaven
2-7 were the list of the arguments against UR you had made in a previous post, I asked if this was correct you said yes
one of your arguments against UR is that we just want to believe all go to heaven
my counter argument is that you ET people just want to believe most go to the torture chamber
that is the wants I was talking about, I don’t actually think you’ve built your theology on wanting to believe most people are endlessly tortured, which you have stated is not the case and you build it on what is in the bible. You even acknowledged that we UR people also have evidence in the bible. At this point, your argument that we just want to believe all go to heaven is null and void by your own admission, that it is based on evidence.
Why is it that people think that Satan lied in that circumstance? God affirms, they neither died and they became like Him later on in Genesis. Adam even called his wife ‘Eve’ which means Living, not dead. The lie in Scripture is not that you will surely not die, the lie was if you touch the fruit, you will die.
So you are saying that God lied? What am I missing?
This line of thinking always disturbs me as a person who has self worth issues. If we are worth anything than it is never for what we do or what we are but because of what God has done. When I was thinking about this, I came to the conclusion that to say we don’t have infinite value is to undercut the nature of God. If people use the argument that sin is an infinite offence because it is against an Infinitely Holy God, why can we then not say that we have infinite value because we are created by that same Infinitely Holy and Loving God? Maybe I’m missing something here? I mean, it is as easy for God to speak someone into existence as it is for us to breathe but He still did it. He still thought to make every single one of us. David dedicates most of Psalm 139 to the fact that not only did God create us but he knows everything about us and about what we do. Jesus, Himself tells us that the very hairs on our head are numbered and while the context is a warning about fearing “Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell”, He is aware enough of what is going on in our lives and is concerned with it. He goes on to tell us that we are of more value than sparrows. See I tend to think of the this teaching, particularly in the way that Punt has worded it, to be difficult. I do believe that we need to be humble, that we need to realise that we are sinful and broken and nothing without Jesus. To believe that there is anything meritous in what we do without God does a great inustice to Him. I also think that the logical conclusion of this line of reasoning is that we end up being completely worthless, because if the God that created us does not see us with infinite value than what is the point of us? We have infinite worth not because we are “hidden treasure” but because God has even thought of us enough to create us and make us part of His plan and purposes. And all of this is even before I get to what God did for us through Jesus. So I have to admit to finding this line of argument problematic to the point of dangerous, because if it leads to people feeling worthless to the point of hopelessness than I believe that is quite destructive.
sorry Nathan, i was referring to oxymoron’s post. he used that phrasing too, sorry if that wasn’t clear. i understood it to be about what a doctrine says about the nature of God. i feel that ECT would have us believe one thing about God’s nature that isn’t born up by Scripture, but that UR seems to rectify this, and brings all things into harmony with Scripture, experience, etc. you don’t have to appeal to “mystery” or to the idea that “everything God does is good simply because it’s God doing it” which contradicts the character He displays to us as good and expects from us as well.
i really like what you’re saying though, especially about dark faith. i think that is true. i’ve given that little monster too much room to roam in my life, and far too much food. but when you focus on God, and let HIM pull you along, then the worry vanishes like shadows in the mist. you realise how great He is, and how if we let Him guide us, death cannot occur. but still, He can resurrect! the more i think of UR the more i realise that God’s kingdom is also about the destruction of evil. no evil will exist in any pocket of God’s kingdom when He has finished His great work. and all we can do is participate with joy!
No, God didn’t lie, the serpent didn’t lie but beguiled Woman after she believed a lie of her own making. The serpent wasn’t lying that they would not ‘die’ when they touched the fruit or ‘die’ when they ate the fruit. The serpent wasn’t lying when he said that it would make them like God.
Genesis 3:22 (NASB) Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”
However, God didn’t lie either. They didn’t die from eating a fruit, they died because they were removed from the Garden of Eden and placed back outside from where he came, they died a few hundred years later.
Genesis 3:23 (NASB) “therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.”
I’m still not following you either on this one . . .you say there was no lying . . .God didn’t lie, the serpent didn’t lie … .then you say the fact that Adam was still living afterwards . … and then it get’s fuzzy because on the one hand, you say God didn’t lie when he told Adam if he eats of the fruit that he’ll die . . .but then you say Adam didn’t die until later so . . . And then I lose your point all together.
God said they “would surely die” , the serpent said they wouldn’t die . . .
I propose that where they were “in” the garden was a level of relationship that ended when they were driven out of the garden . .so “something” there did indeed die.
Another one I’ve heard on this is the “day is a thousand years” principle in that God said the DAY you eat of it will be the DAY you die and Adam lived just shy of 1,000 years . . or . . .just shy of a day.
I would have to say God didn’t lie . . .Adam died the day he ate of the fruit.
Yes, the issue is the Serpent decieved not with a lie, but with trickery and he used the Woman’s ignorance and her own lie to trick them into eating of the tree. They didn’t die because they ate the of the fruit, the fruit was not poisonous and neither of them dropped dead. They died because they were forced out of the Garden where the Tree of Life was since they disobeyed God’s command not to eat of the fruit.
I just find it interesting that people think that the lie in Scripture is ‘you shall not die’, but the lie is actually 'God told me not to touch the fruit."
The serpent was crafty and most wise creature that God ever created. He didn’t have to lie in order to deceive and beguile the woman.