Who will be finally lost...

dirtboy · March 9, 2018, 1:55am

I’ve been reading the reformed website of Neil Punt, biblicaluniversalism.com/Pos … lyLost.htm
and it has been interesting reading. They take the approach that “All persons will be saved except those the Bible declares will be lost,” as opposed to how he thinks the view has changed over the millenia to “All persons will be lost except those the Bible declares will be saved,”. Therefore he is a reformed theologian who holds to an “inclusive” theology that includes the belief that ALL infants who die will be saved. This is an article on his site about who will be lost and it challenges universalism:

Posting 2 WHO WILL BE FINALLY LOST?

          In this chapter we will examine the evidence for Biblical Fact # 2:

“All persons, except Jesus Christ, are liable for and polluted by the imputed sin of Adam (inherited sin). However, the Scriptures neither teach nor imply that anyone is consigned to eternal damnation solely on the basis of their sin in Adam apart from actual, willful and persistent sin on the part of the person so consigned.”

          The title of this chapter, “Who Will Be Finally Lost?” assumes that some persons will be finally lost. Before answering the question, we must say something about this assumption.

UNIVERSALISM’S DENIAL

          Throughout the history of the church there has been a minority who deny that some persons will be finally lost. They believe that every person, without exception, will find salvation in Christ either in this life or in a future existence. This belief system is called Universalism, Absolute Universalism or Restoration Theology. As strange as it may seem, evangelical Christians in increasing numbers are accepting this view. "It is a consummation devoutly to be wished," as Shakespeare might say. But wishing does not make it so.



          Universalism is among the most appealing and destructive errors seeping into the church today. It is the original lie of Satan, “You will not surely die” (Gen. 3:4), tailored for a humanity already in sin. Its message to everyone is, "Even though you may endure the purging of God's judgment, you will not surely die." It is more deceptive than its brief original form because it is presented as the result of the work accomplished by Christ.



          Universalists find their strongest argument in the so-called "universalistic" texts cited in Posting 1. Understandably so. Those passages do speak of a certain-to-be-realized salvation in terms of all persons as we saw in Posting 1. Our zeal to refute Universalism does not give us permission to distort or deny what those passages clearly say. We will look at a proposed resolution to this problem in the next chapter.



          Few truths are more obvious to those reading this Posting than that there will be a final division of mankind; some will be saved and others will be finally lost. An extensive refutation of Universalism in this context would be "preaching to the choir." Nevertheless it is good for us to be reminded of the biblical teaching about this final division of mankind (see Posting “Restoring Hell.”) Below are three subtle arguments that are often and effectively used by Universalists.

CHILDREN OF GOD?

          Parents never abandon their children except for the fact that those parents are either sinful or weak. God, the Holy Father, with his unlimited ability and resources, will never finally forsake any of his children. Even though a mother may "have no compassion on the child she has borne," God will not forget any of his children (Isa. 49:15). It necessarily follows: "If we are children, then we are heirs . . . co-heirs with Christ" (Rom. 8:17). Therefore, the Universalists say, no one will be finally lost.



          The assumption underlying this argument is that all human beings are children of God by virtue of their creation in the image of God. If the assumption upon which this argument is based is valid, then the argument is irrefutable. Evangelical Christians seldom question this assumption. We are not told that Adam and Eve were created as God's children. The Scriptures know of only two ways to be part of God's family: through natural generation ("Christ alone is the eternal, natural Son of God") and by adoption ("we are adopted children of God"). Even sinless human beings would require adoption into God's family.



          Biological ancestry does not make someone a member of God's family!  "Do not think you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.'  I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham" (Matt. 3:9). The stuff we are made of, whether Abraham’s physical descendants or stones, does not make us or prevent us from becoming children of Abraham with God as our Father. "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed" (Gal. 3:29).

INFINITE VALUE?

          Another subtle argument based upon a false assumption is this: “Every person will be saved because everyone created in God's image is of infinite value.” Again, this argument is irrefutable if the premise is valid. God is neither so foolish nor so weak as to be deprived of something that has infinite value.



          So much good would result if all human beings were treated as though they had infinite value that we like to think this hyperbole is literally true. But nothing created can be of infinite value. If it were, the essential distinction between the Creator and what is created would be breached.



          Furthermore, to say that every sinner has infinite value does an injustice to the gracious character of God's saving act. Each sinner is not a "hidden treasure" or a "pearl of great price" sought after by God because he or she has infinite value. Such a teaching contradicts the scriptural truth that he saved us "because of his own purpose and grace [undeserved favor]" (2 Tim. 1:9). They have “become worthless” (Rom. 3:12). The fact that we are mere creatures saved by grace, not on the basis of worth, requires us to recognize that human beings are not of infinite value.

A GREATER HOPE?

          In recent years some Universalists have been speaking of a "greater hope."  The reference is to the hope that God's punishments in the "hereafter" are a chastisement, a purging, that culminates in salvation. It is true that all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ. Each will receive what is due him or her for the things done in the body, whether good or bad (2 Cor. 5:10). This can be neither a punishment nor a form of purification for the sins of those who are in Christ Jesus. The judgment scene depicts "those on his right " who are publicly awarded for the good they have done and "those on his left" who are publicly judged for the evil they have done (compare Matt. 25:35, 36 with Matt. 25:42, 43).



          Those who desire such a "greater hope" (as defined in the preceding paragraph) can do so only at the cost of giving up the far, far "greater hope" that is expressed in these familiar words of the hymn: "Jesus paid it all, all to him I owe."  Jesus is the sin bearer who bore all the sins of all his people. The biblical evidence for this truth is so extensive that I can cite only a fraction of it here: "The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all" (Isa. 53:6). "It is finished" (John 19:30). "The blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin" (1 John 1:7).



          Universalists who long for such a "greater hope" add "except for some sin" to each of the verses in the preceding paragraph. They do the same for the verses on which they depend for their Universalism, including John 1:29; 2 Cor. 5:19; and 1 John 2:2 (see Posting 1). This denigrates the perfect work Christ accomplished for his elect in that he has removed all our sins from us “as far as east is from the west” (Ps. 103:12). Christ having completed his work, no further punishment or purification can be required from any person for whom Christ died.

WHO WILL BE FINALLY LOST?

          The question is not "Who deserves to be finally lost?"  The answer to this question is crystal-clear: "every person."  Due to the fall and disobedience of our first parents, all persons, except Jesus Christ, are conceived and born in sin. Consequently every one of them deserves eternal death and God placed them under the sentence of death. "The result of one trespass was condemnation for all men" (Rom. 5:18a).



          Romans 1:18–3:20 and parallel passages reveal the corruption and blameworthiness of all persons that result from their sin in Adam (inherited sin). These passages are a description of every person who is not born again and of every child of God before he or she was born again. They reveal the fact that "All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one" (Rom. 3:12). This inherited sin of all mankind is both sufficient and efficient to bring all persons to eternal condemnation.



          Human blameworthiness is taught so consistently throughout the Scriptures that all of orthodox Christianity confesses it. This has uncritically filtered into our thoughts and theology as if it were evidence that all persons are outside of Christ. This erroneous deduction from the doctrine of original sin accounts in large measure for the widespread and firmly held premise that “All persons will be lost except those the Bible declares will be saved,” that is, premise A .



          The teaching of original sin does not distinguish those who will be saved from those who will be finally lost!  The doctrine of original sin does not tell us whether many or few, all or none, of those involved in it will be finally lost. Worthiness for final judgment does not distinguish the elect from the non-elect. By reason of original (inherited) sin, both elect and non-elect are worthy of condemnation.

A VAST DIFFERENCE

        There is a vast difference between being worthy of death and the actual implementation of that sentence. It is one thing to say that all persons, elect and non-elect, infants and adults, Gentiles and Jews, those under the law and those not under the law, believers and unbelievers are conceived and born in sin and worthy of death. It is something quite different to say that all of them will suffer eternal death. From the fact that ▪all persons are worthy of death we cannot draw the conclusion that all persons are “outside of Christ.”



          Although the Bible teaches that all people (except Jesus Christ) have come under the judgment of God because of our union with the first Adam and are worthy of eternal death, nowhere does the Bible teach or imply that anyone is ever consigned to hell solely on the basis of their union with Adam, apart from willful, persistent rejection or remaining indifferent to God’s revelation of himself to them.

JUDGMENT SCENES

          In every final judgment scene portrayed in the Bible the penalty is based upon works done by the individual being judged. Every New Testament passage that speaks of eternal punishment being carried out is listed below. Invariably, condemnation is based on what that person has or has not done. It can be said that God permits each and every one of those who will be lost to follow “in their own ways” and to eternally punish them “. . . not only for their unbelief but also for all their other sins” (Canons of Dort, I, 15). “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom. 3:23).



          Salvation is obtained by grace (“the gift of God”); condemnation is executed on the basis of works (“the wages of sin”):

● Matt. 7:23 “Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evil doers.’”

● Matt. 16:27 “. . . and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.”

● Matt. 25:42, 45 “For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat . . . . ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’”

● John 3:36b “. . . whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”

● John 5:29b “. . . and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.”

● Rom. 1:20b “His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”

● Rom. 1:24, 25 “Therefore, God gave them over . . .” because “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie.”

● Rom. 1:26a “Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.”

● Rom. 1:28 “Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God he gave them over to a depraved mind. . .”

● Rom. 2:1b, 2 “. . . because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.”

● Rom. 2:5–8 “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath . . . God ‘will give to each person according to what he has done’ . . . But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.”

● 1 Cor. 6:9, 10 “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

● 2 Cor. 5:10 “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”

● Gal. 6:7 “The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction.”

● Eph. 5:5, 6 “For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person . . . has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God . . . for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.”

● Col. 3:25 “Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is not favoritism.”

● 2 Thess. 2:12 “. . . so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”

● Rev. 20:12b, 13 “The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books . . . and each person was judged according to what he had done.”

● Rev. 22:12 “. . . and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.”

● Rev. 22:15 “Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.”

          The above passages tell us that no one is consigned to eternal death solely on the basis of the sin or the sinful nature they inherited from the first Adam. This does not mean that no one will suffer the consequences of original (inherited) sin or that the guilt of original sin has been removed for everyone.



          The conclusion we draw from the above scriptural evidence is that all who will be finally lost will be condemned on the basis of their sin in Adam combined with the fact that they persistently, knowingly, and willfully rejected or remained indifferent to God's truth, kindness, and company, however it was revealed to them during their lives on earth (John 3:19). They will have consciously said "no" to God and insisted on living apart from him.



          It is incumbent upon those who claim that all those who live their entire life apart from any exposure to the gospel to prove that all such persons are numbered among those who will be finally lost.  Where is the testimony of God’s written Word that all such persons will be finally lost?  It is the Bible and only the Bible that has the right to describe those who will be finally lost.

UNTIL “THE LAST DAY”

          How it is possible for mere creatures to turn themselves over to Satan, or why anyone would choose to do so, is lost in the "secret power of lawlessness" (2 Thess. 2:7). How many do so, and precisely who they are, will not be known until "the last day" when the Good Shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. The lines of demarcation are not seen today. There will be many surprises (Matt. 25:31–46, John 12:48).



          If we had known Paul before his conversion, when he did "all that was possible to oppose the name of Jesus" (Acts 26:9–11), we would have assumed that he clearly was among those who will be finally lost. We would have been in error.

          We cannot even say that those who presently reject Jesus and the words he speaks will be lost. "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him . . . There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day" (John 12:47, 48). If Jesus says this about a person who rejects him and his words, and does not assume that such a person will be lost, how much less justification is there for us to believe premise A, namely, "All persons will be finally lost except those who the Bible declares will be saved."

          Paul's admonition to "judge nothing before the appointed time" but to "wait till the Lord comes" must certainly apply to judging that some persons have been assigned a place in Hell (1 Cor. 4:5).



          Salvation is by grace and by grace alone. Condemnation is never carried out apart from the deliberate, willful, persistent sin on the part of the person condemned. This leaves the question concerning the relationship between God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility unresolved. Nevertheless, we can accept both because this is the testimony of the Scriptures.

          In 1980 the Christian Reformed Church officially subscribed to Biblical Fact # 2 (as presented in this chapter) by adopting Report 30. The biblical basis for adopting Report 30 can be found in the Posting 11: “ Evangelical Inclusivism in the Christian Reformed Church."

NealF · March 9, 2018, 1:55am

Oh, God. If he wants to actually “refute” universalism, he has to deal with the verses that support the points he’s arguing against! For example:

“CHILDREN OF GOD”
What about Matt 7:11 and Acts 17? Jesus clearly says God is the “Father” of “evil” people, and Paul tells pagan Greeks they’re all his children. And no universalist thinks “biological ancestry” has anything to do with whether we’re God’s children! Straw man!

“INFINITE VALUE”
This is another straw man. People, while extremely valuable, are not “infinitely valuable” if that means “as valuable as God.” They are, though, in a sense infinitely valuable because they are each individually designed and created by an infinitely loving God who gave his life (and infinitely valuable sacrifice) for all people. What this comes down to is whether one believes Jesus’ infinite sacrifice gets his money’s worth. Isaiah 53:11–he WILL be satisfied with what the toil of his soul accomplished!

“A GREATER HOPE”
Yet another straw man. No universalist believes that Jesus’ sacrifice is insufficient. In taking this line of argument, though, Punt has punted away ( )all the biblical statements about God purifying people, being a refiner’s fire, etc. Way to entirely disregard a recurring theme throughout Scripture! Gee whiz.

AllanS · March 9, 2018, 1:55am

That argument cuts both ways. Wishing to see your enemies in eternal torment does not make it so.

If all who sin will surely die, that must include Christians too. But didn’t Christ die for us? Didn’t he die in our place?

“the son of Enosh,
the son of Seth, the son of Adam,
the son of God.”

“Our Father, who is in heaven…”

The value of something is determined by the price someone is willing to pay for it. God paid an infinite price for us. Therefore we are of infinite value. It’s impossible to purchase something that is worthless. The moment you put a price on something, it has value.

Note the exclusive his people. (I dislike Calvinism more with every passing day…)

Astoundingly, the author then quotes:

“The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all”. Where’s the exclusivity gone?

Yes, that’s the bad news. Now for the good news. The inherited righteousness of Christ is sufficient to bring all persons to eternal justification.

Agreed.

But because God is the wise and loving physician, no one will persistently reject God.

Sin kills us, but God’s unearned gift in Christ raises us from that death.

Salvation is obtained by grace; condemnation is executed on the basis of works.

● Matt. 7:23 “Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evil doers.’”
● Matt. 16:27 “. . . and then he will reward each person according to what he has done.”
● Matt. 25:42, 45 “For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat . . . . ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’”
● John 3:36b “. . . whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.”
● John 5:29b “. . . and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned.”
● Rom. 1:20b “His eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.”
● Rom. 1:24, 25 “Therefore, God gave them over . . .” because “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie.”
● Rom. 1:26a “Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.”
● Rom. 1:28 “Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God he gave them over to a depraved mind. . .
● Rom. 2:1b, 2 “. . . because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth.”
● Rom. 2:5–8 “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath . . . God ‘will give to each person according to what he has done’ . . . But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.”
● 1 Cor. 6:9, 10 “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”
● 2 Cor. 5:10 “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”
● Gal. 6:7 “The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction.”
● Eph. 5:5, 6 “For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person . . . has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God . . . for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.”
● Col. 3:25 “Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for his wrong, and there is not favoritism.”
● 2 Thess. 2:12 “. . . so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”
● Rev. 20:12b, 13 “The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books . . . and each person was judged according to what he had done.”
● Rev. 22:12 “. . . and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.”
● Rev. 22:15 “Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.”

What a lot of bad news. Let me add some good news:

“For God has bound all men into disobedience so he can have mercy on them all.”

People who persistently reject God are lost forever. But one one will reject God forever because God’s love never fails, nor does he give his glory to another.

Good question. Only a lunatic would choose Satan, and lunatics cannot be held responsible for their actions. They need healing, not punishment.

What sort of shepherd loses all his goats?

Never said a truer word.

Nathan · March 9, 2018, 1:55am

Sadly, they only see what their minds want them to see. I found it ironic that he elected to quote a passage that UR actually uses for it’s affirmation.

“The result of one trespass was condemnation for all men” (Rom. 5:18a).

The really sad part is . . .he never added the rest of that verse. It’s as others have stated, this is a strawman argument. Or the guy is a cherry picker. When you keep the message entact in it’s original context, AND you lay down preconceived ideas and doctrines . . .it all boils down to “desire for truth”. Until we get to the place to where we can admit to ourselves that we really don’t care if we have to admit we might have been wrong before, we seriously want the “truth” of God’s message . . .until we come to that place, we’ll continue to bash our heads against each other. But after . . . his truth produces harmony over division.

I just find it soooo interesting that a person in the belief of UR can live with a person in ET, but a person believing in ET just can’t live with a person believing in UR.

SLJ · March 9, 2018, 1:55am

That’s because we are absolutely certain that they’ll eventually come around. But they’re fearful for us – that we’ll end up in hell for not believing in hell and take others with us, too.

Amen! I loved your post, Allan!

Sonia

redhotmagma · March 9, 2018, 1:55am

He pulled out the old “Satans oldest lie you won’t die”:

For the wages of sin is death, and then being tortured for all of eternity, but the gift that you’re responsible for is eternal life in Christ Jesus. Romans???

I think it also says as in adam all die (and are tortured for all eternity), so also in Christ shall those who are clever enough (which is the real meaning of all) be made alive.

Lefein · March 9, 2018, 1:55am

I hate it how Satan’s lie is exalted over Truth’s truth.

_oxymoron · March 9, 2018, 1:55am

This is an oversimplification. What many universalists don’t or want to understand is that universalism changes the very nature and attributes of our God not to mention turns the gospel as we understand it upside down. Until you have a God centered approach to your theology then you could not begin to understand how serious a threat universalism is to our doctrinal approach of scripture. We do not worship the same God-two different “christianities”

It’s not as simple as wanting to believe all go to heaven.

redhotmagma · March 9, 2018, 1:55am

Its not as simple as wanting to believe most go to hell

_oxymoron · March 9, 2018, 1:55am

Not clever but those who believe. John 3:16. At least be fair in your criticism.

_oxymoron · March 9, 2018, 1:55am

what…

redhotmagma · March 9, 2018, 1:55am

oxymoron, you wrote “Its not as simple as wanting to believe all go to heaven”

Do you believe most go to hell because you want to?

_oxymoron · March 9, 2018, 1:55am

It doesn’t matter what I believe but what I see in scripture.

redhotmagma · March 9, 2018, 1:55am

For the wages of sin is ________ but the ________gift is eternal life in Christ Jesus

What was the punishment for eating of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil?

My criticism is going and making the jump from what the serpent said, to those who embrace the victorious gospel, saying you won’t burn in hell for all eternity as being the same lie. I was using hyperbole to make my point. I was just writing in what those who want to believe in eternal torture for the vast majority of humankind for all of eternity have to think when they read those passages (me being one less than a year ago, minus the part about wanting to believe that, that was just another little jab at you oxy )

redhotmagma · March 9, 2018, 1:55am

Do you think its possible that us heretics might have some evidence from scripture too?

_oxymoron · March 9, 2018, 1:55am

I think you really need to study what Neil Punt had to say because it is evident that there is a clear disconnect in your understanding of scripture.

We are all God’s children but “children of God” is something entirely different. You will find no where in scripture the lost being referred as “children of God”. Only those who are born again are children of God.

John 1:12
“But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,”
*
Romans 8:16
“The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God,”*

John 11:52
“and not for the nation only, but in order that He might also gather together into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.”

1 John 3:1-10
“1How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,a we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure…”

_oxymoron · March 9, 2018, 1:55am

We all have the same evidence. We differ on how we interpret it.

redhotmagma · March 9, 2018, 1:55am

Do you see the fallacy of your original statement now? wanting to believe all go to heaven

_oxymoron · March 9, 2018, 1:55am

which fallacy? so I can better understand your point of view.

redhotmagma · March 9, 2018, 1:55am

when you state that “its not as simple as wanting to believe all go to heaven” you are implying that is the reason for believing in UR.

when I questioned if thats the reason you believe most people will be tortured for eternity because you want to believe that, you then said it was what you see from scripture. After more questions you stated we both have evidence, just different conclusions. Therefore, your implication that UR’s believe the way they do because they want to is fallacious.