Sorry, Chad - ‘XN’ is shorthand for ‘Christian’ much as “XTY” is used for ‘Christianity’ by some folks.
MM, I don’t believe the bible is about life after we leave this earth. It’s about THIS life, and bringing “heaven” down to earth.
qaz, I agree. However, from what I understand, the Law of Moses is the Law of Christ. they are one and the same. This is why Moses and Elijah were both seen with Jesus on the Mount(Horeb). Moses gave the Israelites the bread of life, just as Jesus gave us the bread of life. But man changes it.
Davo, from what I understand, Jesus’ words came from God who gave them to Adam, who passed it on to his children, who passed it on to their children and so on and so forth.
Sin still alienates us from God. But, what also alienates us from God is false teachings and the fact that such teachings have many times become law and forced upon people. Such was the case with the Levitical/ Jewish law. It was a stumbling block for many of the Israelites because it contained false teachings which were then made “the law”.
I pretty much agree with the following; but I am willing for have errors in it, if any, pointed out. Geez, my head is starting to hurt.
Please notice that the ‘new teaching’ does not have anything to do with what davo and MM are saying about Christ’s work and God’s grace. I think we are all mostly in agreement on the Essentials. I hope.
quote
The Faith of God: Does God have Faith?
THE FAITH OF GOD- Introduction
Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland, and other Word-Faith teachers have a brand new revelation, “God operates by faith.” And we, too, ought to exercise the same kind of faith that God exercised when He created the world. Well is this new revelation really biblical?
THE FAITH OF GOD- The “Proof”
There are only two prooftexts from the Bible which are used to prove that God exercises faith, and they don’t support this doctrine at all. The first is Mark 11:22, this tell us: “Have faith in God.” Well, grammatically this could be translated, “Have faith of God,” or, “Have God’s faith.” And therefore the Word-Faith teachers commonly say that we are to have “the God kind of faith.” However, this is clearly a mistake. You see, in Greek the grammatical form here means not “faith that God has” but “faith, that has God as its object.” In context Jesus is exhorting His disciples to have faith when they pray — in other words, when they ask God for things, they are to have faith in Him [Mark 11:23-24]. It’s always object oriented.
THE FAITH OF GOD- Another “Prooftext”
The second prooftext, Hebrews 11:3, says that “by faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the Word of God.” The Word-Faith teachers here twist this to read that God by His faith created the world. In other words, God had to exercise faith in order to create the world. Again, this interpretation clearly is ruled out by the context. The whole chapter is talking about the faith exercised in God by human beings: “By faith Abel… By faith Enoch… By faith Noah… By faith Abraham… By faith Sarah…” [11:4,5,7,8,11], and so forth.
THE FAITH OF GOD- What IS Faith?
The whole idea that God has faith is completely foreign to the Bible. Biblical faith is: human beings trusting in a God they cannot see, to do things that He has promised. God sees all and knows all from all eternity. So, God doesn’t need to have faith. And since God doesn’t need to have faith, the idea that we have to imitate God’s “faith” is clearly unbiblical. Remember, faith is always object oriented: Faith in God not faith of God. And if we mix that up, we have a faulty understanding of what true biblical faith really is. end of quote
Dave, I agree with this. I believe Jesus was telling us to have faith in the words He spoke, that these are the words of the Spirit that God gave to man in the beginning, and they will always be the Word of the one true living God. If we follow them, they will give us life, spiritual life.
So Dave, what are your thoughts on this… leaving aside the assumption/argument above about (we have to imitate God’s “faith”) which actually isn’t pertinent to the basic issue raised in this thread, i.e., whose faith; what do you make of “the faith OF Christ” issue that can’t so easily be swept under the rug? And how might this challenge the notion of the God OF faith given that in evangelicalism Jesus = God? I haven’t really seen anyone answer that from this angle… any thoughts??
Davo, I think you are completely right, given the Evangelical assumption that Jesus=God.
I think that’s an erroneous assumption and I cannot defend it nor its eventualities. 
Just as an aside check out note 9 pg 159 of Enns’ Adam…
Excellent! (In my kindle version, it is note 88 on p159.)
Re: that Enns footnote for those who do not have access, here is a portion of it
Here Enns is pointing out that the ‘faith OF Jesus Christ’ can best be understood as ‘faithfulness of Jesus Christ’. I’m totally into that, it makes sense, at least to me, that fits in various contexts. The 'faith of God (the Father) is thus best understood as HIs faithfulness. YMMV.
Which raises the question, Dave. If he is not God, when what EXACTLY is he 
Wrong thread for this, methinks, Randy mon ami.
But a hint:
MacDonald: “What Jesus did, is what the Father is always doing; the suffering he endured was that of the Father from the foundation of the world, reaching its climax in the person of his Son. God provides the sacrifice; the sacrifice is Himself. He is always, and always has been sacrificing Himself to and for his creatures. It lies in the very essence of his creation of them. The worst heresy - next to that of dividing religion and righteousness - is to divide the Father from the Son - in thought or feeling or action or intent; as representing the Son as doing that which the Father himself does not do” (“Life” - US 2).
No problem. You made the statement in this thread, Dave. I’m just asking a question - regarding your statement. 
No problem.
Dave, I’m not clear as to precisely what assumption you reject. How do you understand “the Evangelical assumption that Jesus=God.”
I’m not so sure, Dave. Yes, faith is something that we have toward God, but we can’t conclude that faith is not something that God could have or exercise.
If faith (pistis) has to do with assurance/persuasion/confidence/trust, then did not God demonstrate faith when He said, “Let there be light”?
-Jesus (God the Son), the author and finisher of faith—is the source of our faith; so faith comes from him: it is something he has to dispense.
-Jesus (God the Son) lived as a human who demonstrated faith—again, showing that *God does have faith.
*
Jesus says,
Here, it would seem Jesus is talking about releasing faith, not to God as the object—but (I would suggest) from God as a gift, through us, to an object (in his example, a tree)—comparable to when God said, *“Let there be light.” * After all, we are made in His image.
So I suppose I’m arguing that whereas God is always the source of faith, He is not always (overtly) the object of faith.
Blessings.
If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.” Luke 17:6.
Here, it would seem Jesus is talking about releasing faith, not to God as the object—but (I would suggest) from God as a gift, through us, to an object (in his example, a tree)—comparable to when God said, “Let there be light.” After all, we are made in His image.
Maybe it’s analogous to Jesus statement about casting the mountain into the sea which may have actually been a prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem. If true then it’s not a comment about our faith but more like “You better believe Jerusalem will be cast into the sea.”
Also Gal 2.20 in context simply sounds like God is faithful even though the Israelites were not.
What would God need to ‘believe’ in, though? In any case, when Scripture is not very clear on something, I try not to be too dogmatic.
The scripture does speak voluminously about God’s Faithfulness. I feel on very safe ground with that.
I know now that I am interacting with people (maybe not you Hermano) that have been involved in the Word of Faith and related movements. I myself have not, so there is not a common ground. What these fine folks are talking about is described using a patois they are used to. On the outside, I find it difficult to understand.
But what is CLEAR in scripture, I"m all for. Got my hands and head full with ‘just’ that
It’s not just the evangelicals who believe in the paradoxical mystery of the Trinity, it’s also the Anglican, Orthodox, and Catholic.
God = Jesus
God = Father
God = Holy Spirit
Jesus gave us the example as He trusted and relied upon the Father. God has faith in God therefore I have faith in God. That is, I believe God to keep His promises. I rest in Him as I surrender in trust of His Divine providence. He holds my future in His hands. For He promises to work everything together for good for those that love Him. And I love Him. I love Him because He first loved me in His suffering death and resurrection. I have hope. The past is blotted out and my future is secure. I’m free to live in the present moment. And in the present moment are treasures eternal. I have surrendered under His rulership. He is my Lord and in control. It’s by the joy set before me that I endure.
Wow, how can we not think that God had faith in his people (children… wife… Israel) that he would not act on their part? By gosh he sent his son 
How much more faith and love can you have? 
Simple as apple pie but we screw it up every time.
Chad - If by ‘believing in his children’ is what you mean, I"m all in agreement.
Truly, I do not think that is what MW was saying; if by ‘the faith of God’ he meant that God is our Father, that he believes in and encourages his children - well of course!! Why would I have trouble understanding that?
But that is not what he said. It’s not what he meant.
I am done with MW at this point. ’
Chad - If by ‘believing in his children’ is what you mean by the words ‘the faith of God’, I"m all in agreement. But it did not take MW to teach you that, I"m pretty certain. It has been believed since the beginning. Why would I think otherwise??
And after reading Benny Hinn and others, and their ‘new revelation’ about the ‘faith of God’, I KNOW that they are not talking about His ‘belief’ in his kids.