Whose Faith?

[maintenanceman]

First of all, I would have to point out that the creator God, might have a reason and a plan and a useful reason for His creation.

DaveB said:

Truly, I do not think that is what MW was saying; if by ‘the faith of God’ he meant that God is our Father, that he believes in and encourages his children - well of course!! Why would I have trouble understanding that?

Hmmm. But what about the idea that he see’s his creation who he gave free will to acting out in behavior less than becoming, (like our own little children) and He loves us and has faith that we will rise to the occasion (much like we do with our own kids) I think this is a plausible position. Dave I realize it is simplistic, but that is me

So can I ask what you think MW is saying? What don’t you like about his message? I would truly appreciate it

[anon12438761]

First of all, I would have to point out that the creator God, might have a reason and a plan and a useful reason for His creation

I’ve never thought differently, brother.

Hmmm. But what about the idea that he see’s his creation who he gave free will to acting out in behavior less than becoming, (like our own little children) and He loves us and has faith that we will rise to the occasion (much like we do with our own kids) I think this is a plausible position. Dave I realize it is simplistic, but that is me

I’ve never thought differenty, brother!!

I am done with MW, Chad.

[LLC]

Re: that Enns footnote for those who do not have access, here is a portion of it
Here Enns is pointing out that the ‘faith OF Jesus Christ’ can best be understood as ‘faithfulness of Jesus Christ’. I’m totally into that, it makes sense, at least to me, that fits in various contexts. The 'faith of God (the Father) is thus best understood as HIs faithfulness. YMMV.

To me, having the faith of Jesus is believing in and following the same God that He did. “The one who is righteous will live by faith” as I understand it means we live by belief in the same set of values( truth, love, forgiveness, compassion, the Golden Rule etc.etc.) that God has put in our hearts and minds.

[anon12438761]

I like that, and agree with you!

[LLC]

Hmmm. But what about the idea that he see’s his creation who he gave free will to acting out in behavior less than becoming, (like our own little children) and He loves us and has faith that we will rise to the occasion (much like we do with our own kids) I think this is a plausible position

MM. You can have faith in your child. However, if your child has no faith in the power of the Spirit that is within him as well, he won’t accomplish much. This is what happened to Peter.When he got out of the boat to walk on the water, he sank.

[davo]

However, if your child has no faith in the power of the Spirit that is within him as well, he won’t accomplish much.

And THAT makes the very point of this whole discussion… the gospel is about the revelation of “whose faith?” — God’s faith, i.e., “His belief” in each of us, to where we can cast aside our own insufficient faith (belief) and grasp His with solid assurance — because He alone is faithful!!!

[anon12438761]

How do you understand “the Evangelical assumption that Jesus=God.”

Is it the “=” sign that is confusing?
I was responding to something said earlier, to the effect that, since Jesus is God, and Jesus had faith, that therefore God has faith.

“Jesus is God” is a huge statement, and an ambiguous one, but we’ve hashed that over in other threads for years now. Wouldn’t you say that almost without exception, most evangelicals would say ‘Yes’ to the following question: “Is Jesus God”?

[LLC]

However, if your child has no faith in the power of the Spirit that is within him as well, he won’t accomplish much.

And THAT makes the very point of this whole discussion… the gospel is about the revelation of “whose faith?” — God’s faith, i.e., “His belief” in each of us, to where we can cast aside our own insufficient faith (belief) and grasp His with solid assurance — because He alone is faithful!!!

Davo, I think you and MW are grasping at straws. If a person has no faith in his own God given abilities to “move mountains” , he’s not going to move squat.
In reference to “whose faith”, there are many different faiths out there to pick and choose from. Having the faith of Jesus is following the same God that He believed in followed.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

However, if your child has no faith in the power of the Spirit that is within him as well, he won’t accomplish much.

And THAT makes the very point of this whole discussion… the gospel is about the revelation of “whose faith?” — God’s faith, i.e., “His belief” in each of us, to where we can cast aside our own insufficient faith (belief) and grasp His with solid assurance — because He alone is faithful!!!

Davo, I think you and MW are grasping at straws. If a person has no faith in his own God given abilities to “move mountains” , he’s not going to move squat.

I assume MW is the person, who made the YouTube message at youtu.be/-L_vfdJG88w - Davo referred to. Since he has ONLY 300 or so hits, I don’t thinks folks have much faith - in his message. They are probably saying this:

[maintenanceman]

Hmmm. But what about the idea that he see’s his creation who he gave free will to acting out in behavior less than becoming, (like our own little children) and He loves us and has faith that we will rise to the occasion (much like we do with our own kids) I think this is a plausible position

MM. You can have faith in your child. However, if your child has no faith in the power of the Spirit that is within him as well, he won’t accomplish much. This is what happened to Peter.When he got out of the boat to walk on the water, he sank.

But that is kind of the point, (and you just said it very well) the point that God sent his heavenly son to his earthy sons and daughters to take away their sins, something that the law proved beyond a doubt they could not do for themselves. God showed his faithfulness in wanting the best for his creation.

[LLC]

Davo, I think you and MW are grasping at straws. If a person has no faith in his own God given abilities to “move mountains” , he’s not going to move squat.

MM, As I said to Davo above… Jesus did not take away our sin. He showed us the way, and if we neither believe in, nor follow that way, our sin remains. As Isaiah says, “Cease to do evil, and learn to do good. Though your sins are as scarlet, they shall be white as snow.”

[davo]

I assume MW is the person, who made the YouTube message at youtu.be/-L_vfdJG88w - Davo referred to. Since he has ONLY 300 or so hits, I don’t thinks folks have much faith - in his message. They are probably saying this:

But you gotta love the theme music from the Alan Parsons Project…

[davo]

If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.” Luke 17:6.

Here, it would seem Jesus is talking about releasing faith, not to God as the object—but (I would suggest) from God as a gift, through us, to an object (in his example, a tree)—comparable to when God said, “Let there be light.” After all, we are made in His image.

Maybe it’s analogous to Jesus statement about casting the mountain into the sea which may have actually been a prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem. If true then it’s not a comment about our faith but more like “You better believe Jerusalem will be cast into the sea.”

There could indeed be echoes of this in terms of…

Dan 9:16 “O Lord, according to all Your righteousness, I pray, let Your anger and Your fury be turned away from Your city Jerusalem, Your holy mountain; because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and Your people are a reproach to all those around us.

[Paidion]

Wouldn’t you say that almost without exception, most evangelicals would say ‘Yes’ to the following question: “Is Jesus God”?

Sure, I’d say that. But the BIG question is, “What do various people MEAN when they state that ‘Jesus is God’?”

1.When a Modalist (for example, a United Pentecostal) says “Jesus is God,” he means that God is a single divine Individual, and that His name is “Jesus.”

2. The Trinitarian believes God is a Trinity. Therefore each member of the Trinity is God. Thus Jesus is God. Probably most evangelicals hold to this position.

3. The early Christians affirmed that Jesus is God. Sometimes they used the word “God” to refer to the Father alone, and other times they used in in a generic sense, just as we often use “man” in a generic sense. Since you are the son of a human being, you are “man.” Since Jesus is the son of God, He is God (in the generic sense). This is the sense in which John 1:1 states “…and the Word was God.”

[steve7150]

This is the sense in which John 1:1 states “…and the Word was God.”
Paidion

Why not “The Word is God” , because the Word became flesh and dwelt among us therefore Jesus is God like the Word was God. It seems to me the Father is the source and from him came the Spirit and the Word.

[LLC]

Maybe it’s analogous to Jesus statement about casting the mountain into the sea which may have actually been a prophecy about the destruction of Jerusalem. If true then it’s not a comment about our faith but more like “You better believe Jerusalem will be cast into the sea.”

Steve, I think it is about our faith. There was an age old battle going on between the Israelites which seems to have started after the exodus from Egypt. It was between the sons of Ishmael(prodigal/"illegitimate) and the sons of Isaac( ones who followed the one true God). It was a house divided.
They were going by two different:

1. faiths-beliefs about God
   2.Laws- the Jewish/Lev. law vs. the Law of Christ
   3.mountains- the Levitical law from Mount Sinai vs. the Law of Christ from Mount Horeb.
   4.trees- one bearing bad fruit vs. one bearing good fruit
2. seeds- those of the physical seed of Abraham vs. those of the spiritual seed.
   In the end, they were separated by the final destruction of Jerusalem. I believe that those who stood in their faith in the one true God played a big part in making that happen. There are STILL many false religions and false beliefs that exist today. We must decide which faith to live by because there is only one that gives us true life.

[anon12438761]

Sure, I’d say that. But the BIG question is, “What do various people MEAN when they state that ‘Jesus is God’?”

My point exactly.

[LLC]

Why not “The Word is God” , because the Word became flesh and dwelt among us therefore Jesus is God like the Word was God. It seems to me the Father is the source and from him came the Spirit and the Word

Our bodies are the temple of God.When we live in the Spirit of God according to his word, then God dwells among us. God dwelt among people many times in the past. For example, Exodus 29:45 says this: “I will consecrate the tent of meeting and the altar. I will also consecrate Aaron and his sons to minister as priests to Me. I will dwell among the sons of Israel and will be their God.”

This did not make them God. It did not make Jesus God, nor does it make us God.

[steve7150]

steve7150 wrote:
Why not “The Word is God” , because the Word became flesh and dwelt among us therefore Jesus is God like the Word was God. It seems to me the Father is the source and from him came the Spirit and the Word

Our bodies are the temple of God.When we live in the Spirit of God according to his word, then God dwells among us. God dwelt among people many times in the past. For example, Exodus 29:45 says this: “I will consecrate the tent of meeting and the altar. I will also consecrate Aaron and his sons to minister as priests to Me. I will dwell among the sons of Israel and will be their God.”

This did not make them God. It did not make Jesus God, nor does it make us God.

Yes i agree but that was not my point.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

steve7150 wrote:
Why not “The Word is God” , because the Word became flesh and dwelt among us therefore Jesus is God like the Word was God. It seems to me the Father is the source and from him came the Spirit and the Word

Our bodies are the temple of God.When we live in the Spirit of God according to his word, then God dwells among us. God dwelt among people many times in the past. For example, Exodus 29:45 says this: “I will consecrate the tent of meeting and the altar. I will also consecrate Aaron and his sons to minister as priests to Me. I will dwell among the sons of Israel and will be their God.”

This did not make them God. It did not make Jesus God, nor does it make us God.

Yes i agree but that was not my point.

I have some related comments on this, from another thread here at [How should we feel about salvation?)