The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Why are there Mormons?

Theology Philosophical
#1

I don’t want to attack or defend the Mormon faith here, but I understand there are 14 million Mormons, and it seems to me that that raises a question.

Their religion isn’t based on the Bible, or even their own unique scriptures, it’s based on the idea of living prophets, and direct personal revelation from God.

Their founder (their first living prophet) was either a true prophet of God, a deliberate fraud, or insane.

And his followers either had divine dreams, visions, and genuine promptings, were party to a deliberate fraud, or were delusional (to one degree or another.)

As I already observed, his followers have now grown to 14 million, and it seems unlikely they’d all be deliberate liars, so the question is why God would allow sincere people to be so deluded.

I know one who claims to have had a detailed vision of our premortal existence when she was nine years old.

I believe she believes what she told me, and even if you explain it as a hallucination, there’s still the question of why God (especially a universalist God, who loves everyone) would allow people to be so deluded.

Does anyone have any thoughts?

#2

Do you claim to know the whole truth? Let us say that for any reason they are deluded, it would be because they base their righteousness on something which they are ‘obligated’ and ‘required’ to do.

Mormons insist that propitiation (forgiveness) of sins comes “through the faith and good works of the sinner…conditioned on individual effort” (J.E. Talmage, AoF, p.87-9)

Galatians 5:4 If you seek to be justified and declared righteous and to be given a right standing with God through the Law, you are brought to nothing and so separated (severed) from Christ. You have fallen away from grace (from God’s gracious favor and unmerited blessing).

Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace (His unmerited favor and graciousness), it is no longer conditioned on works or anything men have done. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace [it would be meaningless].

#3

So if there’s a God, and if they’re deluded into believing the Gospel was restored through their Church organization in 1830, and in basing their salvation on the obligations and requirements of their Church organization, why would God allow them to be deluded?

That’s the question.

I know someone who says he heard an audible voice tell him that “all things taught by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints pertaining to the salvation of men are true.”

If he heard such a voice it could only mean one of two things.

Either God really was telling him that the church of his youth is true, or he’s been deluded (possibly by himself, or his own mind) into thinking he heard God telling him this.

Assuming there is a God, why would He allow His children to be deluded (either by circumstances, their own minds, or forces outside their minds)?

#4

Well assuming there is a God.

I will assume:

  1. He is All Good
  2. He is All Powerful
  3. He is All Loving
  4. He is All Knowing

Therefore, for the greater good of all, he allows them to live and learn. Since He has the final say, and He knows how to solve anything, on account He is all loving, He will restore them anyways.

The point isn’t anything but this:

Ecclesiastes: 8:15; 9:7-9
Then I commended enjoyment, because a man has no better thing under the sun [without God] than to eat and to drink and to be joyful, for that will remain with him in his toil through the days of his life which God gives him under the sun.

Go your way, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a cheerful heart [if you are righteous, wise, and in the hands of God], for God has already accepted your works.

Let your garments be always white [with purity], and let your head not lack [the] oil [of gladness].

Live joyfully with the wife whom you love all the days of your vain life which He has given you under the sun–all the days of futility. For that is your portion in this life and in your work at which you toil under the sun.

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol (the place of the dead), where you are going.

#5

My Mormon friend (like myself, but for very different reasons) tried to kill himself.

As I understand it, he also heard a voice telling him he had found his soul mate, and felt God lied to him when they broke up.

He still feels God told him they were meant to be together, but now views the whole thing an an Abrahamic test (and is waiting for things to work out the way God told him they would.)

I haven’t heard any audible voices, but there have been some external circumstances which seem to point me toward the LDS Church (and make me hesitant to speak against it), but the Theology makes no sense to me (intellectually.)

I’m being encouraged to get baptized and do Temple work (and if they’re right, non of you will be saved until you join their Church, or have Temple work done for you after you die.)

I don’t want to speak for or against the LDS Church here, but I would still ask the same question I asked in the OP.

Why are there so many Mormons if they’re all wrong?

How could they and their founder believe God was talking to them if He wasn’t?

Why would God allow circumstances (or voices, whatever their source) to mislead his children?

P.S. Depending on how I look at it, the same circumstances that seem to point me to my friend’s Church could also lead me to believe there is no God, that everything is just random coincidence, and that the things I regret most can never be made right (and I had the right idea about this time last year.)

#6

The form of the question “Why does God allow so many X if they’re all wrong”, which relies for its force on the number of X, could be asked with even more force other ways around, of course.

Why does God allow so many Buddhists or so many Hindus or so many Muslims or for that matter so many atheists if they’re all wrong? Each of those groups very vastly outnumber the Mormons.

Or again, you wouldn’t escape the problem by going to Mormonism, even in regards to other Christians!–because there are several orthodox trinitarian Christian groups which outnumber the Mormons severally (most especially the Roman Catholics), and all ortho-trin Christian groups put together outnumber the Mormons by roughly 1/3 the population of the Earth. (Same is true with Muslims and almost as true with Buddhists and Hindus put together.) If anything your problem would become proportionately worse!

Philosophically, however, the question doesn’t depend on relatively large numbers for its force. It only depends on the existence of one example.

I know that doesn’t answer the question of why God allows people to be wrong or even deluded (by themselves or by natural causation or by other persons (whether intentionally or accidentally) or by some combination thereof) rather than inerrantly guiding everyone at all times. I’m only pointing out that the Mormons don’t have any special claim to priority on that ground. The Roman Catholic Church, or even the Eastern Orthodox Church, also has a tradition of living prophets and numerous personal mysticisms, and their numbers far exceed those of the Mormons and for a much longer time.

#7

Good point Jason.

In fact, I think we are all deluded to one degree or another. And I assume that I’m likely 30% to 70% wrong in my beliefs, I just don’t know which ones; if I did, I’d repent.

#8

Michael, I’m sorry to hear about the dark experiences of you and your friend. I’m reminded of a scripture that has meant very much to me and maybe you’ll find some comfort in it too.

Galatians 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

I’m afraid one of the greatest yokes of slavery is the “circumstance treadmill”. I was taught through church that I needed to find god’s will for my life and spend time every morning in bible reading and prayer in order to stay in the center of god’s will.

This is a HORRIBLE way to live. It causes a person to quickly get to a point where every little decision is over analyzed and becomes agony - stuff like “should I wear my green or blue shirt today?”

I came to the conclusion that god does have a “will” for my life and it’s nothing more than for me to know that he loves me and always will regardless of what I do or direction I take. His will is for me to know and feel his loving and gracious presence in every circumstance even the awful ones I have created.

As the verse above suggests god’s will is for us to exercise our freedom. I believe he created and adventurous spirit within each of us and he totally delights when we exercise our freedom. And we are like a young bird that flaps erratically and dive bombs into earth - it’s part of the process of learning to get our equilibrium. God doesn’t so much have a preordained flight path for us that we are supposed to find but rather he desires that we learn to fly well and experience the world he has created for us. I believe freedom is a foundational principal with god and all of the religious and governmental structures that seek to limit this freedom are diametrically opposed to the spirit of god.

Because they are born that way just like Baptists, Buddhists, and Muslims and most never leave their parent’s religion.

Who’s to say that we all (even us enlightened evangelical universalists) are not still almost completely bound to futility?

Romans 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

#9

This is similar to the question NON believers ask, “If there IS a God, why is there so much pain and killing and hurt in the world?” To this I say that God is THE Father. And as a father myself, I can relate. My responsibility as a father is to GUIDE my child, and give her the advice and the tools to make her own decisions, because she is given free will, just like we are all given by God. That is not to say that they always listen to the right sources, or make the right choices, but the CHOICE is there, given by God. If my daughter were to ask me if Santa Clause was real, I would tell her yes. In a few years when she asks one of her friends that, she may get the opposite answer, the outcome is based on which person she CHOOSES to believe.