The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Why Didn't God Stop Adam From Eating The Fruit?

Auniversalist, I like your zeal but I said before the fall. The fall happened in Gen 3. there was no sin, death, corruption, and or sin nature in the world in Gen 1 and 2 before the fall. :smiley:

One particular interpretation of the Bible teaches that billions of people are in everlasting hell. Thankfully, there are other ways of reading the text.

But supposing your particular interpretation is correct, you then have to decide if the God responsible for this catastrophe is worthy of your love and service. If God has has spectacularly failed in his duty of care towards his creation, how are you going to respond? Are you going to flatter and grovel in a pathetic attempt to save your own skin, or are you going to stand up like a man of integrity and charge this God with crimes against humanity? What if your righteous anger against this sort of feckless God is precisely what the true God desires to see? Abraham stood up against what he thought to be a pitiless God and discovered God was full of mercy. Job also raged against this sort of God. All heaven looked on in wonder as this miniscule, bipedal primate furiously faced up to God himself, demanding justice. God came at Job’s summons, spoke to him face to face, and declared him to be a righteous man.

As Scripture states, Sin existed prior to the Law but it was dead. The moment the command came, Sin sprang to life. Sin existed prior to the Fall, but did not come into affect or life until God gave the command.

Sin and death were not released into the world until Adam ate the forbidden fruit in Gen 3. Prior to this creation was in a state of perfection.

Though I disagree with your Lucifer theology, should you believe as you stated, you just proved my point and destroyed your premise.

Based on your own admission of your Lucifer theology, sin, death and corruption happened FAR before the fall of Adam. As I pointed out, they existed but were never imputed against Adam. Your idea that creation was perfect (should you believe in Lucifer) is reasonably unsound and your belief called into question since obviously you think that Lucifer was not a created being but a God that always was…

It gets more messy Revival, you enjoy my Zeal for God, but all zeal must be enlightened according to correct and vital knowledge.

**Romans 10:2 “I bear them witness that they have a [certain] zeal and enthusiasm for God, but it is not enlightened and according to [correct and vital] knowledge.”
**
Proverbs 13:16

All who are prudent act with knowledge, but fools expose their folly.

:laughing: Lucifer’s rebellion did not release sin and death into the world…Adam’s did. Sin and death were not released into the world until Adam ate the forbidden fruit in Gen 3. Prior to this creation was in a state of perfection.

Again demonstration with show this to be wrong.

Based on your theology:

Since Lucifer was already in the world, his sin most definitely bring sin and death into the world; however, based on your own belief of facts, you demonstrate a different conclusion than what you claim.

Premise: If Creation was perfect, there would have been no ‘crafty’ serpent in the Garden and no opportunity for deception to be utilized.

Proposition: That is, since the Serpent was in the garden (a Fallen Angel as your theology states) sin was already in the garden; and Lucifer, a created being (part of the creation of the heavens), would have shown that before Adam both sin and corruption was in creation.

Conclusion: Since Lucifer was in the Garden, creation was imperfect by his very presence before Adam and only prior to Lucifer was creation perfect.

Your theology is messy.

Auniversalist

Romans 5:12
12 **Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, **and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: :smiley:

Messy? You don’t know my theology to make such an erroneous statement. :smiley:

Indeed, and even if that is how you interpret what it means “sin entered into the kosmos”, you will have to drop and forget that Lucifer ever sinned or was ever in the Garden and re-evaluate the seriously flawed theology of 'Angelic rebellion from the Heavens". You cannot hold on to one belief and hold on to a contrary belief.

Also, kosmos does not mean world, kosmos has many definitions including 'sphere of influence over humanity".

Therefore we recognize:

Romans 5:12
12 **Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the “sphere of influence over humanity”, **and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: :smiley:

Why do we know that Kosmos is speaking of the sphere of influence over humanity and not ‘entire universe’ is because Paul repeats himself in the same verse “So death passed upon all men.”, and at not ‘so death passed upon all creation.’.

As demonstrated in verse later, sin was already in creation but was not taken into account prior to the Law and when God gave the commandment, sin came to life.

When did sin come to life? Was it when Adam disobeyed, or the moment God gave the command?

Romans 7:9
Once I was alive, but quite apart from and unconscious of the Law. But when the commandment came, sin lived again…<.>

Even Scripture states, sin was in the world before Adam transgressed the command.

Speaking scientifically, there was lots of death and corruption in the world before humans first were guilty of conscious evil. Every time Gronk ate a banana, he killed zillions of plant cells. Every time he drank water, he killed zillions of microscopic creatures. Every time he scratched himself, off came zillions of dead cells. As for corruption, every time he pooed behind the bushes, decomposers sprang into action.

Corruption is a good thing. Imagine a world where nothing decomposed. In the same way, biological death is a good thing. Death makes room for something new. No death means no reproduction. No reproduction means no variation and selection, no biological evolution.

Theologically speaking, if there was no evil in Adam, Adam couldn’t have sinned. Everything must act in accord with its nature. If Adam by nature was morally perfect, perfect he must remain. A morally perfect Adam would perfectly reject sin. He could no more sin than a rock could fall upwards. But he did sin. How is that possible? Sin would be utterly repugnant to a morally perfect person. By analogy, would you eat a bowl of dog’s vomit?

Again, speaking theologically, the whole cosmos was made from primaeval chaos, from the dark water of Genesis 1. Earth was formed from the water, and Adam was made from this earth. But Adam wasn’t made of dry earth, but wet. He was formed from clay, and only wet clay can be shaped by the potter’s hand. So Adam had lots of water in him, lots of dark, primaeval chaos. In a word, Adam was able to sin because he was wet, because he was born of water. He was also able not to sin because he was born of the Spirit of God. In Adam, that which was born of water struggled with that which was born of the Spirit, and the darkness prevailed.

Kosmos contexually in Rom 5:12 means “The sum total of the material universe”. Lucifer’s rebellion did not release sin and death into the Kosmos “The sum total of the material universe” Adam’s did. :smiley:

That is not what the Scriptures state, but you continue trying to justify a theology you cannot defend. :slight_smile:

A definition according to most theological encyclopedias and lexicons
KOSMOS = the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

Auniversalist

Kosmos has many meanings depending on the context of the passage. In Rom 5:12 it means the sum total of the material universe. I’m not going to continue this discussion with someone who ignores the truth and makes continuous erroneous statements. Bless your studies. :smiley:

As pointed out in Romans, Paul only spoke concerning humanity, not the unvierse.

Wrong. :laughing: As pointed out Kosmos has multiple meanings depending on the context of the verse. :wink:

Also Romans 8:21-22
**21 Because the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.**

Paul is referring to the universe here not humanity. How was the universe corrupted? Read Gen 3 and Rom 5:12 again and you will have your answer. Have a blessed night and bless your studies, Auniversalist. :smiley:

Romans 8 is written after conclusion of humanity has been established. Humanity has put creation under bondage to it’s corruption. Everything in synchronized progression and there is to be no jumping premise or proposition or established conclusions.

Romans 5, 6, and 7 establish that sin was already in creation prior to Adam sinning, that God’s command gave sin life (establishing that once again sin was alive prior to Adam transgression), and that he was speaking solely of men (humanity as a whole).

Humanity falls under the definition of things that are part of The Universe; Kosmos, which is not only the “material sum of things” it is the whole “order” of all things, and in Christian concept the whole order of all things under God.

The Big Bang was a moment of maximum orderliness. The universe has been running down ever since. Every day it becomes more chaotic. Energy flows from where there’s lots to where there’s little, space is expanding, thinning everything out, and particles bounce about and inevitably become jumbled. Increasing disorder in the physical universe has nothing to do with the moral choice of a man. If Paul thought otherwise, Paul was wrong.

Similarly, if Paul thought death came into the world through the moral choice of a man, he was wrong. Billions of cells died whenever Adam ate a banana, drank from the babbling stream, or trod on the verdant grass if Eden. We know this for a fact. Paul did not.

So how can we read Paul without leaving our brain at the door?

Have the evil choices of Mankind (Adam means Mankind) brought death and corruption into the world? Yes. Loads of it. Ok. Put these evils into a large bucket. Now think of all the evils we would have avoided or long-since overcome had Mankind made only godly choices. (And remember, both good and evil choices return compounding interest.) Wow. Put these evils into the bucket as well. This vast, vile bucket, festering full, is what Paul is talking about. In Adam, all die.

Theologically and Logically (as you demonstrated) Scripture states as well as all Creation, that sin existed prior to Adam disobeying a command, death existed prior to Adam disobeying a command, but where there was no Law, sin was never taken into account and nor was death a result of sin.

Paul was not talking about physical death either, but the purposeful death that can be willfully exerted on others including moral and physical environment.