I challenge you to show evidence of sin and death( the curse) being released into the world and all creation being corrupted by this sin prior to the fall in Gen 3. Show in Gen 1 and 2 where this happened. Also show in Gen 1 and 2 where creation was not in a state of perfection prior to the fall in Gen 3.
Yes, I understand what I’m saying; it seems that you don’t. I didn’t say that “God is using fear to correct” you or anyone else. What I said was that fear of punishment is a natural result of not living right, not being perfected in love. We naturally fear discipline, even though we need discipline when we continue to walk in sin.
Being a son and a father in loving relationships, I understand the reality of fear that comes from walking in sin. It’s a natural result of sin.
But then I ask, how could unbelievers have a fear of punishment for not living right if many of them dont even believe in any kind of punishment to begin with?
Fear of punishment is not dependant upon a relationship with God, but is a natural byproduct of sin. Sin brings death and destruction and we fear these. If we do not sin, we do not fear these results. Of course, not all fear is rooted in the reality of the destion of sin; some fear is rooted in lies and deception. Fear is an emotion that is rooted sometimes in truth and sometimes in lies.
In 1 John 4:18, John is encouraging believers to live righteously, to not live a sinful lifestyle. So he highlights that some of the fear they are living in is rooted in them living in sin. The more we live rightly, treat others right, walk in righteousness, the less fear we have and the more we walk in peace and faith.
Sherman
Huh? I think you need to read your two different responses above again. You contradict yourself and now your adding more to your fabrication. 1 John 4:18 has nothing to do with your responses and everything about being tormented by fear produced by not being perfected in love. When we are perfected in love that love casteth off tormenting fear and we walk in sound mind.
2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
You see Sherman, when we are perfected in love we walk not in the spirit of fear; but of power, love and a sound mind!
Also in 1 John 4:16-17 talk about God being love and they that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.** Herein is our love made perfect, that we might have boldness in the day of judgment!** There is no fear in love! We don’t have anything to fear in judgment if we are made perfect in love!
I actually have to agree with you there… 
I think that’s what Sherman is basically saying except he explained it differently.
Revival, John was writing this to encourage believers to become perfected in love, to become mature in their love for God and love for others, highlighting the negative effects of not being perfected in love - fear of judgment and punishment. Those perfected in love do not fear judgment or punishment.
If you don’t understand what I’ve written, well, I’m sorry. I don’t know how to explain it much simpler.
I agree with what he wrote above also. And I don’t understand what he’s disagreing with, or understand how he sees what I shared as contradictory.
My original point (which Rev disagreed with) concerning 1 Jn.4.18 was that kolasis, punishment, can be understood as “remedial punishment”, and does not necessarily imply vendictive punishment, much less ECT. John is writing to believers and encouraging them to be perfected, mature in love. And in doing so notes the negative results of not being perfected in love, particularly a fear of judgment and a fear of punishment. Understanding punishment/kolasis here as “remedial punishment” fits well. Understanding ***kolasis ***as ECT certainly doesn’t fit in this passage, for even though believers continue to walk in sin and are tormented by fear in this life, their trust is in Jesus for their ultimate salvation, trusting that salvation is by grace as revealed in the Atonement. Thus this passage affirms understanding ***kolasis ***as “remedial punishment”.
I see what you’re saying now…Kind of like…he has not been made perfect…“yet”…even tho it does not say “yet”…Is that what you mean? It’s kind of a hard passage to completely understand…at least for me.
Tormenting fear corrects no one except torment you.
This, Sherman, is where i disagree with you.
Nooo, caroleem it does not mean that.
Yes. John is encouraging his readers, believers to recognize that one possible reason for them being filled with fear is because they are not perfected in love, love for God or for one another. This is rooted in the understanding that love of God and love for others is the foundation of righteous living, living without sin, not sinning against God or others. And it’s rooted in the understanding that one of the byproducts of sin, especially habitual sin, is fear, fear of judgment and punishment (even remedial punishment).
As Jesus said, the first and greatest commandment is to Love God, and the second is like it, Love your fellow man as yourself. If we’re walking in love, we’re living righteously and the fruit of righteousness is increased faith, joy, and wholeness (peace)!
Sadly, many believers, though they are born again and even filled with Spirit are tormented by fear, and this can be caused by not being perfected in love and not living in the freedom from sin that Jesus affords us. Of course, fear can also be rooted in lies and deception. And I believe that the doctrine of Hell is one such lie/deception. It certainly causes a lot of believers to “fear” concerning the salvation of their loved ones, instead of having faith in Jesus for the salvation of their loved ones. Just last weekend I spoke with some dear friends, neighbors of mine who are overwhelmed with fear of their son going to Hell because he’s a drug addict. They know I have faith in God for the salvation of all people, and the situation didn’t allow me to take time to share with them extensively with I have faith in Jesus for the salvation of their son; but I hope to get to share with them in the weeks to come. As with anyone who has been long indoctrinated in infernalism though, it’s likely an uphill battle helping them to overcome such tormenting fear and instead have faith in Jesus for the salvation of their loved ones. And sadly, fear often motivates people to act irrationally and unlovingly towards others, often making things worse, even moving people in the direction of what they fear.
I’ve found faith in Jesus not only for my salvation, but for the salvation of others to be liberating and empowering. It has especially empowered me to love others more, to love them regardless of how messed up they are, trusting that love never fails! Love is kind, gentle, believes all things, hopes all things, … Perfect, mature, healthy love casts out all fear!
Don’t need to prove it, you already believe in Fallen Angels that tempted Adam to sin. One must be evil in order to tempt another to do evil. Did you not know the definition of evil? Do you understand the definition of ‘crafty’/‘subtle’ serpent means to be one ‘versed in evil’?
Besides the fact that there are no fallen celestial beings from God’s Kingdom now or ever, the facts are:
You can’t be tempted to sin, if sin did not exist; nor is there a tree of knowledge of good and evil, if evil did not exist.
As someone said earlier. You haven’t thought about this, now have you?
Creation was created ontologically good, and nowhere is or has it been stated it was created perfect. That is your assumption and your folly.
I didn’t say “Tormenting fear corrects” anyone. Fear is the result of not being perfected in love and thus not living in righteousness.
The word torment doesn’t even mean ‘torment’ as per ECT anyways.
Torment also means a testing stone used to measure a streak in metal through the purification process. In fact, torment also refers to numerous other things that would not today be considered torment.
Basanizo
to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the
colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
to question by applying torture
to torture
to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
to be harassed, distressed
of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind
My analogy
If you drive your car, obeying the rules, there is no law against you. You will be tested by meters, speed
traps, traffic stops and questioning. Since you broke no laws, you are free to drive.
If you drive a car over the speed limit, you broke the law. You recieve a fine and a ticket, along with
insurance demerits. This is to help you recognize that speeding is not productive to society and yourself.
If you drive your car drunk, you broke the law. Because of being drunk, you drive a car over the speed
limit. You recieve a fine, a ticket, lose your license and spend some time in jail. This is to help you
recognize that DUI is not productive to society and yourself.
A touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of
the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal.
Everyone was tested by meters, speed traps, traffic stops and questioning. They were all tested to
determine if they had broken any law.
Not everyone broke the law, and some did. Some crimes were worse than others when the law was
broken.
Torture, torment, acute pains of the pains of a disease
Those who broke the laws, suffered a series of fines, demerits or even jail time.
The rack or instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth
Police need to use breatholizers, lie-detectors, interrigation tactics, and methods used to determine if
you were DUI. Evidences gathered from these techniques, divulge the truth.
Of those in tormented in "hell" after death
The man who commits a DUI, is taken from society and seperated from his life. He is nolonger free and
while under custody and in jail, suffers for his crimes in hopes that he may recognize his actions were
not productive to society and himself.Btw, could you guys provide citations for your stuff? It’s useful when arguing with people, “Basanizo means this because someone told me this” isn’t very effective, and most dictionaries for basanizo only give within-Bible translations.
It is assumed you should be doing this research on your own, but it is based on Strongs Definition.
928 βασανιζω basanizo bas-an-id’-zo
from 931; TDNT-1:561,96; v
AV-torment 8, pain 1, toss 1, vex 1, toil 1; 12
- to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
- to question by applying torture
- to torture
- to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
- to be harassed, distressed
5a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind
Ones I looked up did not have these definitions, why do you think I am asking?
The burden is always on you to bring a source if you make a claim, you know.
You again did not give a source. What is this Strongs definition? Where is it?
Strongs concordance
classic.net.bible.org/verse.php? … 3&verse=20
I posted the source I use mostly, Netbible. If you click on the numbers (Strongs numbers) under the words it gives you a definition, then if you click on the number again once in the definition page it gives you all the usages of that greek or hebrew word in the bible. There are some differences between translations, KJV has words in greek or hebrew that NAS and vice versa.