The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Why do UR's change the meaning of "Aionion"?

Revival,

Your argument ignores the fact that eonian isn’t always used in ways that could even possibly mean “everlasting”, including in one of your own chosen scriptures (although you neglected to supply the preceding verse where no one of any belief for or against anything anywhere thinks the term means “everlasting”.)

Had you bothered to read or at least pay attention to the many other threads on this site (not to say elsewhere) discussing this topic, you would have known this already, and rephrased your argument to account for that.

Until then, no one here who has bothered to read on the topic is going to be impressed with a complaint wondering why :laughing: URs merely “change” the meaning of eonian.

Thus your argument can be turned around:

“The ECT has no problem with interpreting “aionion” to mean something other than everlasting or eternal in Rom 16:25, but when the exact same word is used to describe God, the life of God, His power and life, suddenly ‘aionian’ means everlasting or eternal meaning. There are many more examples in the Greek Bible where ECTs treat eonian as referring to things that are and were not everlasting (even in cases where the original context might have been reasonably expected to mean everlasting), but Rom 16:25 will suffice. Why do ECTs think it’s Ok to do this? Why does not ‘aionion’ carry the same meaning in describing times previous to the coming of Christ, or hills, or the sacrifices offered in the temple, or the right of various families to do this or that, or how long Jonah was in the whale, as it does when describing the one and only unique God Most High and His properties? Everlasting is everlasting whether it’s describing God, the life of God, or things created or promised by God. The ECTs are not justified in picking and choosing the meaning of a word based upon their interpretations of ‘aion’ that suits them and depending on which verse is used.”

Any ECT with any experience at all would immediately and correctly disregard this argument, and would reply something to the effect of, “Duh, we interpret eonian according to the narrative and thematic contexts and/or according to previously established metaphysical positions, which is why we sometimes translate eonian as meaning never-ending, especially in regard to God Himself, and sometimes as meaning something that ends; and that’s also why we even do so on the couple of occasions, Rom 16:25-26 being one of them, where eonian is used twice in the same exact sentence with superficially similar but ultimately quite different meanings. It is therefore foolish for a UR to use our agreement that eonian doesn’t always mean everlasting as evidence merely in itself that eonian doesn’t mean everlasting when talking about punishment. Nor are we merely changing the meaning of the term around to suit our convenience in order to keep ECT going.”

Had you actually done more research on the forum, you’d already be familiar with arguments (including from myself) indicating that the context of 2 Thess 1:9 and of Matt 25 indicates “eonian” doesn’t mean never-ending in regard to the punishments.

My (and other) arguments might be wrong, but wrong arguments are not the same as merely picking and choosing the meaning of the word based upon the interpretation of “aion” that suits them and depending on which verse is used.

To this I can add (and have added in those arguments you couldn’t be bothered to even research before accusing URs of having no arguments at all but only convenient assertions on this topic), that non-universalists as non-universalists are absolutely committed to interpreting identical terms in close topical context in ultimately different ways, when dealing with scriptures where interpreting those terms identically would otherwise lead to a scriptural testimony of universal reconciliation of sinners by God. (One of those examples involves the term “reconcile” itself, at Col 1.) But those arguments are available in other threads, and you should already be familiar with how ECTs deal with such incidents anyway. If not, you’re welcome to go study them, and come back to try again when you’ve caught up enough to rephrase your challenge to something that isn’t a straw man of your opponents.

Similarly, no ECT (or anni) anywhere thinks the “eonian gospel” being proclaimed by the angel in RevJohn in 14:6 is never-ending, much less that it has no beginning and has no end like God.

So :laughing: is it just me or does Revival change the meaning of eonian whenever it suits him (such as when he wants to argue from other places in Rev 14 that some people will never repent because those people on hearing the eonian gospel of the angel aren’t repenting)?

I’m also at work, and I don’t have any more time to respond either.

Nonsense? No, its just basic grammar. You’re being incoherent. Aionios is an adjective, Sozo in your example is a noun.

As for the basic question “why do UR’s ‘change’ the meaning of Aionios?” Well I don’t know, I suppose you should ask the Greeks of the era why Aionios never definitely meant eternal in the first place, and for all cases. We didn’t “change” the meaning, we translated it more accurately. I wonder why “Gehenna”, “Hades”, and “Sheol” are still translated as “Hell” by Damnationalists (such as yourself Revival) despite the more accurate translations that term them as “Gehenna”, “Hades”, and “Sheol”? The point stands thus, we’re not changing the meaning of Aionios any more than a translator is changing the meaning of “Hell” by translating it back into Gehenna, Hades, or Sheol; we’re presenting furthered accuracy.

Everyone

Matt 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting (aionion) punishment: but the righteous into life (aionion) eternal.

Did God really mean to say: And these shall go away into “aionion” long ages punishment: but the righteous into 'aionion" long ages life? It doesn’t make much sense to say that “aionian life” is simply for long ages. Then what happens?

Do you tell people to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior for long ages life? :confused:

Did Jesus say : Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me has long ages (aionion) life. What does that even mean?

good argument :smiley:

Rev 14:6 “the eternal or everlasting gospel” is eternal for the following reasons:

  1. God’s word is eternal truth and unchanging.
  2. because the gospel effects will be everlasting.
  3. because the gospel great truths have always existed.
  4. because the gospel will remain forever unchanged.

Jason, since you have the time could you please respond to my last post to you in the “Why is the not-yet extended to people in hell now” thread. Thanks.

I tried to explain it to you once and you didn’t even respond. Also, you didn’t even respond to Jason’s verse (I’ve shown it to you and you ignored it in other posts as well) which shows that in your own KJV “aionios” doesn’t always mean eternal and completely refutes your point. In the Lexicons it doesn’t always mean eternal. We are not making this stuff up. Aionios, according to conservative Greek scholars does not always mean eternal:

Romans 16:25

New King James Version (NKJV)

25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret** since the world began (aionios)**

From the beginning of the world to the time of Christ is NOT an eternal period of time, is it Revival? Isn’t that about 4000 years according to conservative scholarship? But I’m sure you’ll continue to ignore the posts that refute your point here as well.

Quite right. It doesn’t mean “for long ages.” ie. No one will be in hell for long ages.

How about this? “And these shall go away into the sort of punishment which only God can give: but the righteous into a new kind of life that only God can give.”

I really cannot see what the fuss is all about. God is good. He loves us. He desires to save us from sin and death. Anyone who says otherwise is blaspheming God’s name. As for the details, I’m more than happy to leave them to God.

dirtboy

Ok, it does not always mean eternal but can you explain this:

Did God really mean to say: And these shall go away into aionion punishment for long ages: but the righteous into aionion life for long ages? It doesn’t make much sense to say that “aionian life” is simply for long ages. Then what happens?

Do you tell people to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior for long ages life?

Did Jesus say : Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me has long ages (aionion) life. What does that even mean?

WAIT, did you really say this:

**

** :question: :question: :question:

:confused: Did Jesus say: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me has the new kind of life that only God can give? or did he say everlasting or eternal life?

Dirtboy

You are saying it doesn’t always mean eternal I am theoretically agreeing with you…now address this:

Did God really mean to say: And these shall go away into “aionion” long ages punishment: but the righteous into “aionion” long ages life? It doesn’t make much sense to say that “aionian life” is simply for long ages. Then what happens?

Do you tell people to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior to receive long ages life? or
Do you tell people to accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior to receive eternal life?

Did Jesus say : Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me has long ages (aionion) life. What does that even mean?

Profound sigh.

Grinding teeth.

Deep breath.

Flex shoulders.

Rub eyes.

Ok.

That’s it from me.

Have a blessed Christmas.

You too.

Wait, one step at a time. You said:

I am theoretically agreeing with you

Do you agree or “theoretically” agree. Romans 16:25 in your KJV, as well as others verify that aionios does not always mean eternal. Do you agree with your KJV or not?

I agree. Anionios is being used here in a temporal sense because of context. Proceed to address my comments above.

Regarding Matthew 25, my earliest influence remarked that goats go into eternal punishment, just as sheep go into eternal life. He suggested that the “going into” isn’t eternal, but that the punishment of sin is eternal (in an aidios sense) to the extent that Yahweh is eternally against sin. If the goats abandons their sin and become sheep they will come out from eternal punishment, even though Yahweh eternally hates wickedness. Not sure if this is a viable interpretation or not, but I thought I’d throw it out there anyway. It may help those who insist that aionion means forever in both accounts of Matthew 25.

Just wondering, why do URers generally insist that “aionion” means two different things in this passage, and then reject “all” meaning two different things in others (like 1 Corinthians 15:22)?

I’m not sure that many people will find that appeal particularly convincing. If God is not recorded as good and loving in the sense you understand it, then you’re not describing the God of the Bible. So we should find out these details. I’d rather be an agnostic, an atheist or a theistic satanist then construct a loving and good god I know to be unsupported by revelation.

Brothers, I view Matthew 25:31-46 at the judgment in Rev 20:11-15. So, I don’t see in scripture the goats abandoning their sin and becoming sheep. I see what Jesus describes: goats eternal lake of fire… sheep eternal life

I generally see them as the same too (though I haven’t really thought this through). But I reject that the goats cannot abandon their sin and become sheep. You’ve been vague on whether you believe that Yahweh would be willing to accept them post-mortem, or whether you believe they just wouldn’t repent. I would love to hear your views on this. On the former, I don’t know of any biblical reason to believe that Yahweh could ever reject His repentant creation. Regarding the latter, I think it’s more than likely, given the length of eternity, the creative power of the Holy Spirit and the optimistic descriptions of the final age, that creation will inevitably repent. I include amongst these reasons, the evidence I put forward that indicates that the kings of the earth will march into the Kingdom, having been baptized in the Lake of Fire.

Unsupported by revelation? In which revelation should I find comfort and guidance? The one I judge to be good. On what grounds do I make this judgment?

I must begin with my own intuition of the good. I have no choice in this. I must take moral responsibility and choose the God I will serve. (Of course, if God is good as I understand goodness, this intuition will be his gift, and therefore a revelation.)

Given my intuition of the good, I reject dozens of God-candidates as unworthy. Moloch. Zeus. Allah. The Tooth Fairy. Santa. The Flying Spaghetti Monster. The Big Angry God who kills his own son to pacify his wrath, and then boils his enemies in oil forever… Every good man is duty-bound to hate these Gods and to reject the works that proclaim them as base lies and blasphemy.

Then I find a God who would rather die in torment than lose those he loves. He forgives even his enemies. He bows so low, so great is his humility and his love, that he becomes a man, a servant of all. He shares our suffering to a bitter end and opens the door to a new creation. From him and through him and to him are all things. In him, no good thing will be lost. In him, death has been defeated.

This God is good as I understand goodness. In my judgment, He is worthy of my deepest love. No other God in the market-place comes close. I believe sacred writings, I believe doctrines, inasmuch as they conform to the God I find revealed in Jesus Christ.