The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Why do UR's change the meaning of "Aionion"?

Dirtboy

It should be translated by the context of the passage in relation to the chapter. Not by how God dealt with Israel or anything else. The context of the passage in Matt 25:46 calls for both “aionion” to be eternal or forever in duration and not one forever and the other to be a long period of time. :confused: There is no hermeneutical ground to differentiate the duration use in aionion in Matt 25:46…You can’t pick and choose how the word is applied in this verse to suit your own theology. Matt 25:31-46 is picturing the final judgment in Rev 20:11-15.

One thing you’ve got to give him . . . he may not address anything we actually say, but he’s certainly livened up the board. :wink:

Cindy, give me a break…I have close to 600 posts in a month…lol… :smiley:

or anything else*

Revival, when Jesus spoke those words (sheep and goats), where was he and who was he speaking to?

I couldn’t disagree more. Tell me Aaron, when Jesus appeals to a discussion between God and Moses in the account of the burning bush, was the context regarding a ressurection?

Jesus uses this to prove ressurection.

What is his hermuetical grounds for using this text as proof for a ressurection?

I believe Dirtboy is using the text properly. How God deals with us and who he claims to be has EVERYTHING to do with how we interpret his words. Here’s an example: Suppose good godly parents tell their son “I’m gonna kill you”. We know that since the parents are godly and good, they cannot mean it literally. But if the parent is a pyschopath and he tells his son “I’m gonna kill you” - well now it takes on a WHOLE different meaning.

Revival,
How do you respond to the view that aionios means: “pertaining to the age”?

This was a parable using a natural analogy of a spiritual truth. Jesus was on the mount of olives speaking to his disciples.

Aionios means: 1.Having neither beginning nor end. 2. Without end. 3.ages of the world; the times since the beginning of the worlds existence. All of these are used obviously according to the context of the passage.

This is fascinating. Jesus is a Israelite, talking to fellow Israelites about the God of Israel and His judgments and yet you tell me that how God deals with Israel is irrelevant to the text? Are these Jews Jesus is speaking to supposed to assume that Jesus, who is the image of the invisible God that they know of from the Torah, is now going to present a God who is completely different than the God who dealt with their forefathers? Why would God’s dealings with Israel be irrelevant to these Israelites?

It was not URs who changed the meaning of “αιωνιος”; it was ETs who changed it from “lasting” to “everlasting” or “eternal”.

The Greek word “αιωνιος” NEVER means “everlasting”. It means “lasting”. However, the word may describe either that which is everlasting or that which is not.

Why MUST they have the same duration? What Greek grammatical rule states that? Indeed, in Greek literature the word “αιωνιος” has been applied to things which last for three years, to things which last three days, and also to things which last for hundreds of years (but not forever). In the New Testament, the word is applied to God, who does last forever. How long the entity described lasts in not inherent in the meaning of “αιωνιος”.

To find out what a Greek word means, one should look up the word in many writings. Lexicons can be deceiving. Besides with a dozen of more “definitions” how can you know the primary meaning of the word? I find that the dozens of meanings which lexiconophers (newly coined word) produce are usually possible words that may be placed in translations to make sense. It doesn’t really help much to understand the word. I go also by the etymology of the word as well as how the word is used. I have studied Greek for several years, and my faith in lexicons has been steadily decreasing. I look up the words as they are normally used in the Septuagint (including the apocrypha), and in extra-biblical Greek writings.

The words which have been translated as “eternal punishment” are the Greek words “αἰωνιος κολασις” Let’s consider “κολασις” first. This word in its verbal from was originally used for “prune” as in pruning plants. Plants are pruned by cutting off certain parts so as to correct the growth of the plant. Then it came to be used in a figurative way in reference to correction of people. “κολασις” was used in classical Greek in reference to a means to correct an offender. Look at any Greek lexicon, and you will find “correct” is given as one of its meanings.

The word is found only twice in the entire New Testament — Matthew 25:46 in regards to the goats in Jesus’ parable, and I John 4:18 .

There is no fear in love, but complete love casts out fear. Fear has κολασις. The one who is afraid is not completed in love.

What could the statement “Fear has punishment” possibly mean? I could understand “Punishment has fear”, but not “Fear has punishment”. Do you know of anyone who has been punished because he is afraid?

However, I CAN understand “Fear has correction”. The context of this statement indicates what the correction is. A state of fear in a person can be corrected when that person is completed in love.

Now back to Matthew 25:46 where the goats are to be sent into “αἰωνιος κολασις”. If we agree that “κολασις” means “correction”, then what would “eternal correction” mean? If a person were corrected eternally, the correction would never be completed, and thus the person would not be corrected at all!

Fortunately “αἰωνιος” DOES NOT mean “eternal”. Indeed, it never means “eternal”. It is the adjectival form of the noun “αἰων”, which means “age”. So, I suppose we could translate “αἰωνιος” as “agey”, but as far as I know, the latter is not an English word.

The word was used in koine Greek (the Greek spoken from 300 B.C. to 300 A.D.) to refer to anything which is enduring. The word was used by Diodorus Siculus to describe the stone used to build a wall. The word seems to have been used as meaning “lasting” or “durable”.

Josephus in “The Wars of the Jews” book 6, states that Jonathan was condemned to “αἰωνιος” imprisonment. Yet that prison sentence lasted only three years.

But the clincher comes from the Homily of the Epistle of Saint Paul to the Ephesians, written by Chrysostum. He wrote that the kingdom of Satan “is αἰωνιος (agey), in other words it will cease with the present αἰων (age).” So Chrysostum apparently believed that “αἰωνιος” meant exactly the opposite to “eternal”! ---- that is “ lasting” but in this case also “temporary.”

As I see it, the following would be a correct translation of Matthew 25:46

And they [those who did not serve their fellow man] will go away into lasting correction, but the righteous into lasting life.

Lasting correction is correction which endures. At some point it comes to an end. Lasting life is life which endures. But it just so happens that the lasting life we receive from Christ endures forever. But the idea of “forever” is not inherent in the meaning of the word “αἰωνιος”.

The true Greek word for “eternal” is “αἰδιος”. That word is found in the following verse:

*Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. Romans 1:20 *

The way God judged Israel naturally for rebellion does not have spiritual relevance in the parable of the sheep and goats. If you really want to know what the Jews were being taught about judgment do a research on "Rosh Hashanah"and “Yom Kippur” :wink:

You are missing the point. The Torah, which was the only “bible” that the first century Jews had, revealed to them what God was like. He is holy. He is your provider. He is your healer. etc. etc. You learned who God was, his characteristics. The way he dealt with Israel didn’t just show us how he deals with Israel, he was showing us what he is like. God isn’t just holy with the Israelites. He is holy. God doesn’t simply “delight in mercy” with Israelites. He delights in showing mercy. That is what he is like. Why would you want to resist this truth taught in scripture simply to hold onto your position that is so blatantly unscriptural? It is shocking to me. We see how awesome, merciful, longsuffering, etc. God is and you don’t want that lest more people get to heaven than you originally thought! I’m going to back out of this conversation now because you are so close minded that it is appalling. I know I can’t convince you. If you can’t see that how God deals with Israel IS THE CONTEXT of how he deals with us there is nothing I can do. Otherwise you have God, who does not change dealing with Israel in his relationship with them and then completely changing the way he does things. Sorry, that is your God, not the God of the Bible. He was showing us his heart when he dealt with Israel and it is a heart of reconciliation. God does not cast away forever. You can lead a horse to water…

BTW, from Liddell and Scott, there are more than one lexicon:

Liddel and Scott:

αἰώνιος , ον, also α, ον Pl. Ti.37d, Ep.Heb.9.12:—
A. lasting for an age (“αἰών” 11), perpetual, eternal (but dist. fr. ἀΐδιος, Plot.3.7.3), “μέθη” Pl.R. 363d; “ἀνώλεθρον . . ἀλλ᾽ οὐκ αἰώνιον” Id.Lg.904a, cf. Epicur. Sent.28; “αἰ. κατὰ ψυχὴν ὄχλησις” Id.Nat.131 G.; κακά, δεινά, Phld.Herc. 1251.18, D.1.13; αἰ. ἀμοιβαῖς βασανισθησόμενοι ib.19; “τοῦ αἰ. θεοῦ” Ep.Rom. 16.26, Ti.Locr.96c; “οὐ χρονίη μοῦνον . . ἀλλ᾽ αἰωνίη” Aret.CA1.5; αἰ. διαθήκη, νόμιμον, πρόσταγμα, LXX Ge.9.16, Ex.27.21, To.1.6; “ζωή” Ev.Matt.25.46, Porph.Abst.4.20; κόλασις Ev.Matt. l.c., Olymp. in Grg.p.278J.; “πρὸ χρόνων αἰ.” 2 Ep.Tim. 1.9: opp. πρόσκαιρος, 2 Ep.Cor. 4.18.
2. holding an office or title for life, perpetual, “γυμνασίαρχος” CPHerm.62.
3. = Lat. saecularis, Phleg.Macr.4.
4. Adv. -ίως eternally, “νοῦς ἀκίνητος αἰ. πάντα ὤν” Procl.Inst.172, cf. Simp. in Epict.p.77D.; perpetually, μισεῖν Sch.E.Alc.338.
5. αἰώνιον, τό, = ἀείζωον τὸ μέγα, Ps.-Dsc.4.88.

Paidion

The original word translated here as “punishment” means torment, or suffering inflicted for crime. The noun is used but in one other place in the New Testament - 1 John 4:18; “Fear hath ‘torment.’” The verb from which the noun is derived is twice used - Acts 4:21; 2 Peter 2:9. In all these places it denotes anguish, suffering, punishment. (Barnes commentary)

Everyone

That the word “aionion” used here in Matt 25:46 is the same in the original as that used to express the eternal life of the righteous; if one can be proved to be limited in duration, the other can by the same arguments. “The proof that the righteous will be happy forever is precisely the same, and no other, than that the unrighteous will, be miserable forever.” :open_mouth: (Barnes)

You keep asking this question as though I deny it’s happening or have never answered, and I keep on answering “God”. It isn’t like I’m going to change my answer. I myself take the opportunity to preach it to the rare demon I run across abusing the world, but at the present time it is God Who, in the 2nd and 3rd Person, exhorts those in hades, in the unseen, to repent and be saved. “Be muzzled!” as Jesus routinely put it when confronting rebel spirits. (Although I do like to add that they can be muzzled or be strangled–the same verb works either way. :ugeek: ) “You be getting behind Me, Satan!” in answer to Satan’s offer to help Christ conquer if the Son will bow down in loyalty to him. (Similarly, in answer to Simon Peter, as a warning to get back to following Himself rather than tempting Him from His goal of salvation from sin.)

English translations tend to obscure this, but it’s happening in the Greek.

Hmm, so you really did mean to say a “death life nature”. Despite the fact that death in itself doesn’t give life; and the daily pittance paid by sin is death, not life. (And you certainly can’t be talking about the holy righteous death of Christ in submission to the Father there.)

But despite your oxymoronic terminology, I’m pretty sure I understand you to be talking about the spiritual death due to sin: a nature of rebellious death, not of Godly life (nor of Godly righteous death into life for that matter).

A position you actually deny elsewhere (thank God). But we’ll discuss that over in its own thread when I catch up there.

As for me, I routinely and consistently preach the gospel of good news of salvation from sin: that God, not sin, determines where we spend eternity, and that God victoriously saves sinners from their sin, not choosing to leave us in our sins (although that would still be God determining where we spend our destiny, not sin per se), and not being impotent to save us from our sins (which would be the case if sin, or sinners such as the devil, determined where we spend eternity.)

If you had really believed this good news (I am assuming you have at least heard of it, although perhaps not), you would rather die the death than to say that sin (or even a righteousness other than God’s, but of all things SIN!?!?) determines where we spend eternity.

I know I would rather die the death than intentionally say that sin determines where anyone spends eternity. I would be denying my own salvation to deny the name of Jesus (“Yah saves”) like that. But I know people do it by accident, too, sometimes, not being careful about what they are saying. (Although notably it tends to happen, in my experience, when one way or another they are trying to deny that YHWH saves someone from sin.)

Unless those scholars are correct that translate aionios as “pertaining to the age”. This would simply be stating that the punishment and life were both “of the age to come”.
How do we know what scholars to believe?

Jason

So God is preaching the not-reconciliation to lost souls in Hades/Hell right now? Really? How are His conversion rates? I would think if God himself were preaching the not-reconciliation to the people right now in Hell it would be **empty **by now because God cannot fail at anything He does yet there are billions of people who are emptied out of Hell/Hades and are not found recorded in the BOL in Rev 20:11-15 and are thrown into the LOF for eternity! God must be a lousy preacher! :open_mouth:

So we are right back to the very questions you have been avoiding :

**I’m sure there are people in hell right now and some who have been there for thousands of years would like this not-yet(reconciliation) to be extended to them. Why is God waiting for them to be resurrected unto judgment and not find them recorded in the BOL and throw them into the LOF? Why bother to do all that when He can extend the not-yet(reconciliation) in this age so the people in hell can be found recorded in the BOL? **

Well, since you’re clearly going to avoid looking up arguments on the context elsewhere, I’ll copy-paste what I wrote about it elsewhere here, in the form I presented in my debate with TFan.

*MAIN ARGUMENT ON MATT 25 SHEEP/GOAT JUDGMENT

This parable (for want of a better word, since it definitely follows two other parables) is the capstone to Jesus’ set of three warning parables including the ten foolish virgins and the lazy servant who hid his talent. It’s pretty obvious that there is no direct indication that things are hopeful in the previous two parables for the foolish virgins or the lazy servant.

Everyone will, I suppose, also acknowledge that the other two parables should be interpreted in light of the sheep and the goats.

When people debate what this parable is trying to say about heaven and hell, they typically focus on the use of “eonian” to describe the life and the punishment. I think we can all agree that “eonian” at least means the life and the punishment both come uniquely from God. And for various reasons, I would recommend that this is as far as the term should be interpreted here. But, since it’s very normal to hash out a discussion on eonian, and since the non-universalist case from this passage (not reading into it from material concepts elsewhere, proper though that may also be) entirely depends on this term usage shutting down (for one or another reason) any hope for the goats–I’ll save that discussion for the rebuttal.

A tactic increasingly more common is to debate what “kolasis” means. Everyone agrees it’s a term for punishment; and I think everyone agrees it’s borrowed from an agricultural term for cleaning sick branches from a vine. What people disagree on, is whether the sick branches are thrown hopelessly into a fire (as Jesus’ imagery at the beginning of His final discourse in GosJohn might mean–although that might be a rather different meaning if the purpose of the unquenchable fire, even in Gehenna, is to salt our hearts so that we will be at peace with one another!); or whether the sick branches can be grafted into the vine of Israel once they are healed (even if they have been cut off previously), as Saint Paul definitely uses the metaphor in Romans 11.

Context is what counts, whether in interpreting “eonian” or in interpreting “kolasis”. So, let’s go to the contextual details of the story.

Christ gathers all the nations together when He comes with His angels to sit on His glorious throne, and separates them from one another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Three things worth noting already: First, Christ acts as the shepherd of the goats as well as of the sheep. The goats belong to Him just like the sheep do.

Second, the word here translated sheep, “probaton”, doesn’t exclusively mean sheep. It’s a general term for any small herd animal including goats. It’s also almost always the term used in the New Testament where the English translates as “sheep”. This means in most cases we could just as easily be talking about the Good Goatherd herding His goats, and going out after the 100th goat to save it! Sheep are admittedly more numerous than goats, usually, whether altogether or in distinct flocks, but that doesn’t mean the term exclusively means sheep.

On the other hand, the word translated goat here, “eriphos”, does mean goat. But it very specifically means BABY GOAT! (The same term is used in the parable of the prodigal son when the older son complains that his father never gave him and his friends a baby goat to party with.)

If Matthew, or whoever translated Matthew’s Gospel into Greek, or even Jesus originally (in Aramaic or Greek), went to the trouble of calling them baby goats… why haven’t translators usually followed suit?! As we shall see, those baby goats do make an important difference as baby goats!

Meanwhile, if the goats are specifically baby goats, then the “probatons” by contrast are probably mature sheep, or maybe the mature herd in general. Is there any evidence that their maturity is being contrasted to the im-maturity of the baby goats? Anyone familiar with the story ought to be able to guess the answer!–but let us proceed.

Christ sends the sheep (let us call them for now) into “eonian life”, with the praise that they have served Him very well. This catches the sheep entirely by surprise: when did they ever serve Christ??? Any Christian (especially one familiar with this judgment parable) ought to know the answer already, and certainly ought to be expecting to have been serving Christ, which indicates that these people are not formally Christian! But Christ counts them as His servants anyway. Why? Because when these people (the “righteous” or “just” ones) were feeding the hungry and giving drink to the thirsty and inviting strangers in, and clothing the naked, visiting the sick and those imprisoned–to the extent they did this “to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.”

Who are these brothers of Christ He is pointing to? (The grammar in Greek is emphatic that Christ is indicating someone there on the scene.) Some people have supposed it was the righteous angels in disguise, or other sheep, since the only other characters in the scene are the baby goats, the least of Christ’s flock. But that would be ridiculous–right!?

The baby goats, on the other hand (literally!), are sent by Christ into “eonian kolasis” (whatever we decide from the context that involves). This surprises the baby goats: they thought they had been serving Christ! When did they ever refuse to give charity to Christ??

When they refused to feed, clothe, visit in prison etc., “even the least of these”, to that extent they did not do it to Christ.

The story warns ostensible followers of Christ that they may be revealed to be the least of Christ’s flock. And what constitutes this revelation? The baby goats did not act to bring the least of Christ’s flock (whether really so or in the perception of the baby goats) out of their misery: the way Christ acts. The sheep, the mature flock, were following Christ; the baby goats were not.

The story is a reversal of expectation, but it’s also set up to test the audience. And the test is this: how are we to regard the baby goats, the least of Christ’s flock?!

Are we to deny the baby goats shepherded by Christ are of Christ’s flock at all? If they are hungry, thirsty, strangers outside, sick and imprisoned, are we to ignore them? Is that what the mature flock does?! Should we expect the good sheep (and the Good Shepherd!) to start behaving like the baby goats now?! Or should we expect them to continue behaving like good sheep and the Good Shepherd?

Because we know from a bunch of other judgment details what’s going to happen to those baby goats (whether analogically or literally). They’re going to be hungry now, and thirsty, and outside the gates of the New Jerusalem, and their clothes will be dirty, and they’ll be imprisoned in the lake of fire (along with the rebel angels), and be sick at least in mind (fondling their sins impenitently).

That’s the scene set in the final chapter of the Revelation to John.

So: what are the Son and the Spirit, and the Bride (the mature flock), doing there? Are they treating those “baby goats” the way the “sheep” in this judgment would? Are they going out to exhort those strangers outside the New Jerusalem to slake their thirst in the freely given water of life flowing out of the never-closed gates of the city, and to wash their robes, so that they might obtain permission to come inside the city and eat the fruit of the log (i.e. the cross) of life, the leaves of which are for the healing of the nations?

Or, is the mature flock now acting like baby goats to the baby goats of Christ, who have themselves been condemned to “eonian kolasis” for acting like baby goats to the baby goats of Christ?!

Even if I didn’t have the end of RevJohn, though, I would still know what to expect, from the narrative and thematic logic of this judgment parable.

I would expect the sheep, and the Shepherd, to keep on acting toward the baby goats like good sheep and the Good Shepherd.

On pain of being found, myself, to only be a baby goat.

And that’s also the challenge on how we should interpret the other verses we’re debating tonight.

Should we interpret them like mature sheep would?

Or should we interpret them like baby goats would?

END MAIN ARGUMENT*

ADDENDUM/REBUTTAL ON EONIAN AT MATT 25*

Proponents for a hopeless punishment here, acknowledge (and indeed insist!) that context should determine what eonian means, whether as a set of options (if there are any options) or as a single meaning; and that even if there are options, context would still determine which options are in play. In regard to this he appeals to the parallelism of the eonian life and the eonian punishment of the sheep and the goats, and further appeals to the principle that a relevant comparison is thereby intended. If eonian means never-ending for the life, then how could eonian not mean (by virtue of the comparison) never-ending for the punishment? Or vice versa, if eonian does not mean never-ending for the punishment, how could it hope to mean never-ending for the life?! So from this direction our hope for the life must be in direct proportion to the hopelessness of the punishment; if the hopelessness is threatened the hope is threatened.

This is a popular and reasonable complaint, but aside from the answer I have already given from the context of the overall structure of the judgment, I can make some further observations.

First, non-universalists of all people are absolutely committed to exegeting identical terms in important close topical context, and even in direct comparison, as meaning substantially different things. The most famous (or infamous) example off the top of my head is Romans 5, where direct immediate parallel comparisons of “all” are required not in fact to both mean “all” (and similar comparisons of “many” are required not in fact to both mean whatever “many” means). It is entirely clear enough, that if “many” by contextual comparison to “all” means “all” each time “many” is used there, and if “all” means “all” each time “all” is used there, then Paul would be teaching universal salvation from sin by Christ. Typically, non-universalists appeal to other indirectly related testimony to try to argue against this, rather than to direct context in Romans 5; which I will allow could be proper to do, perhaps. My point here is not to argue Romans 5 (that’s a whole other debate) but to give an example where non-universalists as such must be committed (whatever their reasons may be) to reading identical terms very differently in closely connected context on the topic of salvation.

Similarly, in order to avoid a universal salvation conclusion from exegeting Colossians 1, non-universalists must either deny that the same words used in affirming the utter divine supremacy of Christ over creation do not have the same meaning when talking immediately afterward about the scope of God’s action to reconcile all things to Himself through the blood of the cross; or they must deny that the same word for “reconcile” when used immediately afterward to speak of the salvation of enemies of God from sin (namely Paul’s readers in the Colossians congregation) does not mean the salvation of enemies of God from sin when speaking of the scope of reconciliation of all things to God by God through the blood of the cross. My point here, again, is not to argue Colossians 1 (that’s a whole other debate) but to give another example where non-universalists as such must be committed (whatever their reasons may be) to reading identical terms very differently in closely connected context on the topic of salvation.

It may be replied that “all” and “many” are common general terms–although I don’t know how far that reply would stretch to include the terms in Colossians 1! But those terms aren’t the important word “eonian”. Maybe it’s theoretically possible for “eonian” to mean two superficially similar but also importantly different things in close context, but are there any Biblical examples of such usage?

In fact there are a few such times!

In the final blessing address of his epistle to the Romans, Paul writes in verse 25 of that 16th chapter that a secret hushed in times eonian has now been revealed which it is our responsibility as Christians to proclaim. Now, those times did not continue but are in the process of ending, and so in a sense have already ended, and will certainly end (one way or another) when Christ Jesus is finally heralded to all creation. Nor did those times stretch without beginning into the past. So those times had a beginning, and are having an end, and will someday be completely ended, and yet are described as “eonian”.

But in the very same sentence, only a few words later, Paul talks about this secret of eonian times having been manifested both now and through prophetic scriptures thanks to the injunction of the eonian God! The same word absolutely cannot mean only never-ending or only ending in both cases. It has to be talking about something that never ends in one case (God) and something that (sooner and later) definitely ends (the times of the secret).

But it may be replied again that Paul does not here directly compare the eonian God with the times eonian. No, that’s true. But the prophet Habbakuk makes such a comparison!

Habbakuk 3:6, “He (speaking of JEHOVAH in the Day of the Lord to come) stood and measured the earth; He beheld and drove asunder (or startled) the nations. Yes, the perpetual mountains were shattered, the eonian hills collapsed. His ways are eonian!”

Here we have an example of a primitive word, AHD, originally similar in meaning to another word used here in this verse, oLaHM. Both refer to the horizon, but AHD means the line of the horizon (or any similar line beyond which something still exists) and oLaHM refers to that which is beyond the horizon. Either way both words by metaphor are often employed to talk about the absolute everlasting greatness of God; but both words are also occasionally used for things which aren’t actually everlasting. This verse might have been expressly designed to contrast those two concepts! For not only are the AHD mountains shattered but the oLaHM hills collapse (using a verb which has a double-meaning of bowing down), when faced with the true oLaHM of God.

oLaHM is the same word usually translated “eonian” in Biblical Greek (although AHD sometimes could be, too.) And this is in fact how the Jews translated this verse for the Greek version of the scriptures, the Septuagint.

So this is a direct example of eonian (both in Greek and in its underlying Hebrew) meaning two similar but ultimately also very different things, not only in close proximity, and not only in close topical proximity, but in actual direct immediate comparison.

In this case the narrative and thematic context immediately clarifies the distinction. I argue that in the judgment of the sheep (or the mature flock) and the baby goats, the nearby narrative and thematic contexts also clarify a similar distinction. Both the life and the kolasis (or punishment) are from God, and both can go on for a long time, but the similarities end there. The eonian life goes on forever, by God’s intention; but God intends an end to the eonian kolasis.

So, such a different double-usage of eonian in immediate context may not happen often. But it does happen to various degrees, including at least once in the closest possible comparison of things described by the term eonian.

Of course, if we go with my preferred interpretation, where “eonian” is used to describe things that come especially from God (yes, even God from God as Romans 16:26 may thereby be rendered!–which no one affirming “very God of very God” will dare deny the propriety of!), then there is no problem at all: the life and the punishment are both equally and especially from God. But that usage is entirely neutral as to the question of whether the punishment (like God!) is unending. It might or might not be. But then so much for using the term in itself as definite evidence that the punishment will be unending.

And, if the issue is pressed that this means eonian life might or might not end, well yes that’s true based on God’s intention: our lives are always derivative of God anyway. I have less than no problem trusting that God will continue to give His life to those who continue in fellowship with Him; just as I have less than no problem noting that unfallen angels also have eonian life from God. Including Lucifer and his allies!–before they fell!

So, eonian life is not in itself a guarantee of its own continuation–which maybe Lucifer was expecting!–but rather God gives eonian life or withdraws it according to His love and justice. He grafts branches into the Vine and breaks branches off; and those He grafts in may be cut out, and those born by God’s decree natural to the Vine may be broken off–but those broken off by God may easily be grafted back in by God when-if-ever God so deems it proper to do so.

END REBUTTAL/ADDENDUM ON MATT 25**

If the punishment in Matt 25:46 is limited in duration, the life of God can be by the same argument but it is obvious the life and the glorified body that believers receive from Jesus are forever and not limited in duration that is temporary.

Rev 20:6
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

:mrgreen: