The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Why do UR's change the meaning of "Aionion"?

Romans 16:25-26
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the **everlasting **God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Aionios means: 1. Having neither beginning nor end. 2. Without end. 3. ages of the world; the times since the beginning of the worlds existence. All of these are obviously used according to the context of the passage.

Contextually verse 25 uses #3 meaning of aionios.
Contextually verse 26 uses # 1 meaning of aionios.

Matt 25:46
46 And these shall go away into **everlasting **punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Contextually there is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life. Kolasis “punishment” is used in one other place in the the NT ( 1 John 4:18) and means torment. Therefore verse 46 uses #2 meaning of aionios for both.

This is starting to feel like you’ve got your fingers in your ears, whilst singing “la la lala la, I can’t hear you”

Sister

You’re entitled to your opinion. What in my post above do you not agree with? There are 3 contexual meanings of the word anionios. Matt 25:46 in context has ZERO reasons not to think the punishment is coeval with the life. My view has been the position of the body of Christ since Jesus taught it and this is starting to feel like all the UR’s sticking their fingers in their ears and saying lalalala “I can’t hear you and I’m going to try to change the context of this word even though there is no basis for it” :wink:

If you have read my prior response to you, you would understand my entitled opinion. If you havent read it, I suggest you do, before making out I’m asserting mere opinion and ignoring what you’ve said. No one says you need to agree with UR. But to ignore all the responses made to you that show biblical and historical, in-depth reasoning, is disingenuous.

You seem to ask for solid, documentable reasoning behind UR exegesis, but seem to feel no need to provide it yourself. Making assertions like “my view is the view of the body of Christ since he taught it” is an example of this. Says who? What is your evidence that your views were the views of Christ and the disciples when He taught this? If I made such claims, surely you would think me a smidgen arrogant?

And quoting a greek lexicon makes you the same level expert at linguistics as a non English speaker who quotes the Oxford dictionary. I have a Greek lexicon that disagrees with your assessment. So does that mean I win?! See, this kind of reasoning doesn’t hold water. If your own arguments and methodology can be turned around and used against your position, then you are being inconsistent. To quote James White, a Calvinist who would in no manner agree with UR, but for whom I have tremendous respect: “inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument”

Sister

What in this post below do you not agree with? Be specific, please. My view has been the position of the body of Christ since Jesus taught it. Research this if you don’t believe me. UR** has never** been the position of the body of Christ and certaintly at no time in its history has the UR interpretation of Matt 25:46 been the postion of the body of Christ! I’m not being arrogant just giving you facts, ma’am.

Romans 16:25-26
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Aionios means: 1. Having neither beginning nor end. 2. Without end. 3. ages of the world; the times since the beginning of the worlds existence. All of these are obviously used according to the context of the passage.

Contextually verse 25 uses #3 meaning of aionios.
Contextually verse 26 uses # 1 meaning of aionios.

Matt 25:46
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Contextually there is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life. Kolasis “punishment” is used in one other place in the the NT ( 1 John 4:18) and means torment. Therefore verse 46 uses #2 meaning of aionios for both.

Revival, my first response to you, I believe in page 2 of this thread, was abundantly clear. I’m not going to repeat myself.
If your biblical interpretation is the belief of the church since Christ, there ought to be abundant evidence for you to bring to bear. Simply saying you are telling me facts does not make it so. On the contrary, you appear to be the one who has done precious little research. You make statements about Koine and Hebrew in an extremely authoritative manner. Yet even to me, only in my first year of learning the biblical languages, it is obvious you are simply proof texting a dictionary. You’re making statements about church history that are so dogmatic, yet to anyone that has spent any time learning church history, your claims are simply silly. If your beliefs are the beliefs of the first Christians and if this is established fact, there ought to be a plethora of evidence to support this. So why do you appear not to have any?

I think I find it sad mostly because I could do a better job of defending ECT than you are, and I don’t even believe in it. And I do like a challenging conversation with someone of opposing beliefs, as I think it keeps us all sharp. And PS no need to call me ma’am. Jael is fine. As a Brit, being called ‘ma’am’ makes me feel like the queen :slight_smile:

:lol are you here to just make critical comments about me
or are you going to address my post biblicaly?

Well are you here looking for dialogue or just to ignore biblical responses made to you? If you would like such discussions, set the example and respond to the very clear biblical exegesis already posted on your thread.

Why am I here? If you mean on your thread, I’m here because I read the entirety of the responses on this thread, observed you ignore the most challenging posts in response and then saw you post the same question again, as if no one had responded to you. I thought you had maybe missed those said responses :slight_smile:. And I summarised the general UR case re sheep/goats in my first post to you. I would simply appreciate some consistency on your part. That is not unreasonable to expect from someone who is issuing theological challenges on a fairly regular basis. That and, as I said, I genuinely enjoy a real, meaty challenge to our beliefs. It keeps us sharp and focussed. And prevents us become g lackadaisical in our studies.

And by the by, I made no personal comments about you. Rather I commented critically on the accuracy of what you publically state as factual. I’m sure you’re a fabulous person in the flesh :wink:

Sorry to disappoint you but if you are not going to
tell me where Im wrong in my post and why…well nice talking
to you. :sunglasses:

Revival, which part of the first post to you was unclear? Did you even read it?
Please do not use language suggesting I ignored the OP. Two forms of interpretation of aionian have been given you, one involving context another involving the judgment in the coming age. The people provided evidence for their beliefs. They may of course, be incorrect. But they gave good answers. Are you saying you would like fresh comments on your post about Romans, instead of about Matthew?

Orly?

Prove it.

Asking for proof of claims made, is apparently refusing to engage his arguments.

As for the core of this debate, discussion, debacle, etc;

Aionion - we’ve already established that it does not always meaning “for ceaseless ever, never ending by default that’s that nothing else”. Therefore Aionion does not mean said ceaselessness by default; as an adjective it only has descriptive power equal to the noun it is describing as I demonstrated with the Long-demonstration.

Before we make any progress with that Revival, you will have to prove that adjectives supersede the qualities of the nouns they describe. In other words you will have to prove that “the Titanic is Long” actually means that the Titanic from tip to end is in fact, longer than itself.

Aionion is an adjective that describes age-related properties, of age-related qualities and quantities. It does not by default describe finite events as being infinite in duration. It describes events and entities in terms of profound infinite significance, or indefinite duration, that is not necessarily immutably endless; endlessness is only described when it is describing things that are in fact endless.

In the case of God - it describes an infinitely significant being, who is qualitatively infinite, and whom has no beginning or end in his personal existence and in himself is indeed endless having no beginning. God as a noun is infinite, the adjective describes his indefinite endurance which will persist so long as God persists. God is qualitatively infinite, and the adjective describes his qualitative efficacy that is indefinitely enduring and profound in its infinite significance and reach.

In the case of Kolasin, it describes an infinitely significant event, that is quantitatively finite by necessity or else it is not “Kolasin” and therefore the adjective Aionion would not describe “Kolasin” because “Kolasin” would cease to be the term being described, but something else entirely like, for example, “Torture” which is exactly what is described by ceaseless punitive measures of inflicting nigh unlimited pain without remedial, justifying, corrective ends.

Kolasin does not describe torture, therefore it must describe punishment with corrective purpose. There is no other dichotomy when it comes to inflicting pain for purpose; it is either torture or correction.

Aionion, and Kolasin we have gone through. Context we’ve also gone through, with many brilliant and esteemed minds such as Jason Pratt, and the many other well studied members of this site having given example after example of various kinds of Biblical context. From Biblical meta-narratives, to nearly Lectio Divina forms of contextual presentation; all of them pointing to God’s love and justice winning in the end, by correcting and restoring the creation he had made and continues to maintain.

This discussion on your part therefore, is not an appeal to “context!” or the meanings of aionion, and kolasin; but it is purely theological, in that it is a demand that your (your theological tradition’s) interpretation of the context and meanings of aionion and kolasin are superior to those provided by the theological tradition of Universalism achieved through Christ’s saving grace extended to all, and reaching all, as did his creative power having created all, and maintaining all.

We’ve presented context, studied definitions, discussions, logical proofs, reasonings, and Biblical foundations. First and foremost we’ve presented in various means and methods the greater nature of God, and we’ve presented God’s consistency as per his goodness, love, and justice; his desire to make everything good, loving, and just. So far, we’ve yet to see good clean arguments from you that have the same level of studious provision.

Then he is not fit to make arguments in the first place.

Amen. Our God is good

Sister,

This is starting to feel like you’ve got your fingers in your ears, whilst singing “la la lala la, I can’t hear you”

I don’t know if I made this comment already on a different thread, or if I merely thought it, but it’s so true.

We have demonstrated, time and time again, using lexica, commentaries, Greek scholars, and meanings within Scripture, that aionios can mean more than Revival’s threefold definition of “without beginning,” “without end,” or “without beginning or end.” That’s a simple fact: the lexical range is broader than that.

Revival,

Repeating yourself over and over while pretending we haven’t already engaged your arguments a dozen times and given you a dozen sources doesn’t make you right, despite how it may serve to bolster your own confidence in what appears to be a slowly dying position (especially among scholarship). It highlights the numerous inadequacies of your position, beginning with your insistance on a narrow lexical range for aionios.

Sorry, completely off topic, but snitzelhoff, you have THE most amazing user name ever!

If anyone is interested, read this. :wink: It’s really good and explains a lot. :slight_smile:

Does “foreverS and everS” Make Sense to You?

what-the-hell-is-hell.com/He … orever.htm

Thanks! :mrgreen: A lot of people think it means something in German or something. It doesn’t. It’s a nonsense word (but quite fun to say).