The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Why I think sin has no consequence...

So I’ll try to keep this short. :slight_smile:

I read the Bible and some online theology discussions, although probably not as much as you guys, and I recently came upon the God’s Plan for All book by the Sulems. I find Universalism quite fascinating, and it resonates within me although I still have questions about the Trinity and a few other things. But the bottom line is, my belief in Jesus who died for my sins is nothing more than a sham if I don’t also believe that my sins are washed away the moment I commit them. You don’t get to go to heaven because you’re a “good person” - theoretically, I could do anything I wanted and still go to heaven. That’s the truth, and to believe otherwise is to questions God’s gift of salvation.

So what’s to stop me from doing it? And the only answer I have for that is love. I do my best not to sin **not **because I want to be a “good Christian” and been seen as an upstanding model of the faith, I don’t care about what anyone else even thinks about me! I do it because I love him, and I want to make him proud of me as a Father is proud of his child. Although I know I **can **sin with no consequences, I chose not to do it of my own free will because I love him.

TL;DR: Sin for me, as a believer, has no consequence. But as a believer, my love for my God prevents me from using that little loophole…

Not to argue - But I disagree. I believe sin always has consequences. However, they are for the purpose of learning, and not super-imposed by God. Meaning, God doesn’t say “Hey wait a minute, this guy is sinning and is bypassing the natural law of consequences. I’ll design something for him and apply it to him. After all, he cannot get the last laugh”. God has designed this universe so perfectly that the one who sins tarnishes and suffers himself, as a method to teach and learn and improve on. That said, sin may not always have ‘obvious, easy to spot’ consequences, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

But I don’t think that was your point anyway… I think you were trying to convey that the consequences of sin is not what deters you from sin, but that love does. I think I would agree with this… But at some level you have been and will likely continue to be disciplined by your sin, whether you know it is the result of it or not.

We are not punished for our sins but by our sins.

What is sin?
As I see it, a sin is an act which harms other people and/or oneself. So sinning certainly has consequences.
But I think you mean consequences in the after life for the sinner. Well, I don’t see God as saying on the day of judgment, "You have committed sins a, b, c, etc. and therefore you must suffer consequences A, B, C, etc. This is the penal view of wrongdoing. God’s judgments are not analagous to a court of law.(See my signature statement). God’s judgments are remedial. He exercises restorative justice not penalties. But God’s correction can be very uncomfortable, and so you cannot sin with impunity because you suppose that you are “covered by the blood” so that when God looks at you He doesn’t see your sin but Christ’s righteousness. This is penal substitutionary nonsense. Everyone will be judged according to his character, God showing no partiality to those who think they are saved from such correction and so deceive themselves into thinking they are safe.

*For he will render to everyone according to his works: to those who by perseverance in well‑doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give lasting life; but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil … but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good … For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-11)*

Everyone will be judged according to his works because his works indicate his character, and if that character is evil, it must be regenerated.

Strong medicine.

God doesn’t punish His children with condemning wrath. He disciplines them. His wrath has been removed at the cross. In faith union we are one with Christ. He is in us and we are in Him. This is how our sins become His. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. - 2 Corinthians 5:21 We are crucified with Christ as we die to the old self as we are buried and baptized into His death and resurrected to new life. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. - Galatians 2:20. We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. - Romans 6:4 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ. We are crucified with Christ as sin is condemned in the flesh. For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh - Romans 8:3. In faith union with Christ we are baptized and buried with Christ and resurrected to new life. God’s wrath and our rebellion are removed so that we can see and feel the beauty of holy love. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. - John 3:18. He that believes on the Son has life eternal, and he that is not subject to the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him. - John 3:36. Again, God does discipline those who are in Christ but this isn’t His punishing and condemning wrath. His blood not only wipes away the past but secures the future as God’s wrath is lifted from our vision. When I confess my sins to God and another human being I am guaranteed God’s promise that if I confess my sins God is faithful and just to forgive me of my sins. Moreover, He promises to work everything together for my good because I love Him and I love Him because He first loved me at the cross and resurrection securing not only eternal life but my future as well. By future I mean anywhere from one second from now all the way to eternity. When my future is secure I have hope. With my past now covered and my future secure I’m free to live in the present moment. The future grace of God pushes the desires that lead to sin from the heart. In union with Christ I am loving as He did for it was by the joy set before Him that He endured the cross. The joy of purifying His bride and being exalted at the right hand of the Father. It was this worship of the Father and this love for everybody that motivated His obedience. It was faith working itself out through love as He trusted the Father in His glorifying of Him. He worshiped God therefore I worship God.

There is no condemnation for those in Christ. God’s wrath has been removed from me. He is now a loving father who disciplines not a judge who condemns and punishes. Only those of the devil condemn and bring a charge against God’s elect. They see God as an evil monster.

This is a very interesting thread, just noticed it hope to revive it. Iagree sin has its own consequences, the reap what you sow analogy. I do wonder about Gods dealing with sin though. Sin by definition is missing the mark right?? It seems like with that broad a definition then sin is inevitable because we all do not meet His mark. It also says, I thnk In 1 Peter but not sure, that anything which is not of faith is sin When we read 1 Corinthians 13, it says love keeps mo record of wrongs. This would correspond to God removing our sins and forgetting them forever. Also, perfect love casting out fear says if there is an expectation of punishment then love has not been perfected/matured.

Hebrews says God disciplines those He loves. Is discipline punishment?? If hell is a possibility that is real, how can anyone with a normal mind NOT have some fear about even the slightest possibility of going there?? Is God Jekyll/Hyde?? The calvinist position would seem to suggest so. Would any of us, if we had children and they disobeyed us, send them to a place like hell??? Would we demand absolute obedience??? Maybe then such theologies attached to God have flaws. I am sure this mixed with other threads but hope to hear more thoughts here.

Hey Robert!

I don’t think discipline is the same a punishment from the way I read the Bible. As for God, yes there are opposites in Him. He’s a paradox. love/hate - mercy/justice - divine/human just as we are paradox. Paradoxes are both/and. The mind tries to split things with either/or. In God all opposites are held together. He loves good and hates evil. When opposites are held together there is light (beauty of holiness). This is the glory of God. The revealed, infinite worth and beauty of holiness.

Hi Michael,

What about the passage I quoted?

*For he will render to everyone according to his works: to those who by perseverance in well‑doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give lasting life; but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil … but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good … For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-11)*

Or do you hold that those in Christ are excluded from the “those” in the sentence, “for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury”? Or do you think that those is Christ are never among the self-seeking? Or that they are never persuaded by wickedness?

Hi Robert,

Wrong. Although “αμαρτια” is one of the 8 Greek words in the New Testament for “sin,” and although it originally meant “missing the mark,” it came to have a much broader meaning; it came to mean any kind of wrongdoing.

As I see it, an act of “sin” is any act which harms others OR oneself.

Hey Paidion!

When we come into faith union with Christ God’s wrath is lifted and our rebellion removed. We will see the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ in the Gospel. Christ becomes our number one. His holy revealed will becomes beautiful bringing joy to our hearts. In this way we obey out of love and joy. This doesn’t mean we never mess up. But when we do God will eventually convict us and bring us back to Himself as He restores to us the beauty of holy love. Moreover, when we receive Jesus we receive Him as our perfection. Receiving Jesus means that He is the ground of our salvation. It is His righteousness and perfection and love for us that ultimately counts before the Father. Faith in Jesus receives Jesus as our substitute righteousness and perfection and love. Our standing with God is the righteousness of Christ.

  1. Those who are born again practice righteousness.
  1. Those who are born of God don’t make a practice of sinning
  1. Those who are born of God love others
  1. Those who are born of God confess the Son and have Him
  1. Those who are born of God believe that Jesus is the Christ

What we see with the people who are not in faith union with Christ is blasphemy of the Holy One. This is the eternal sin unless God’s wrath is removed and their rebellion lifted. They condemn and bring a charge against God’s elect. But the bible tells us there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ. It’s the followers of Satan who charge God as being an evil monster and attack His children.

Hi Paidion- I agree with you about your definition of sin. I know somewhere in NT it says whatever is not from faith is sin. Would you agree that all humans, because we are fallen and fallible, will sin until we leave this earth in some form or fashion?? We can hurt other people at times totally unintentionally or even unaware we did so right?? The hyper-calvinists i think tend to put such an emphasis on sin that it is SO bad God has to respond with severe punishment to maintain His sovereignty and holiness. Doesn’t Jesus spending time with sinners and how He treated sinners go against this theology of necessary judgment in an eternal manner for sin?? I ask because I have friends who hold to ETC and a severe ultimate judgment which actually encapsulates Gods love because He is just and holy. Thanks so much for all your comments i ave read on here and other threads Paidion. You do a great job of being civil,thorough and gracious. :smiley:

Greetings Robert, in the name of the Altogether Lovely One,
Thank you for your kind words.
In response to your inquiry, I would say that we disciples of Christ are being saved from actual sin in our lives. Salvation is a process, a process which will some day be complete.

In this life, we may slip, and stumble, but generally speaking the disciple of Christ has been set free from the dominion of sin and has come under the dominion of righteousness:

Here are eight words for “sin” in the New Testament. The number in brackets at the beginning of each word gives the number of occurrences in the New Testament. The literal meaning of the Greek word is given in capital letters.

The scriptures quoted are from the King James, from Revised Standard, and from other translations. The translated word for the given Greek word is underlined.

[1] ἀγνοημα agnoāma — NO KNOWLEDGE, error due to not knowing

*Heb 9:7 but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood which he offers for himself and for the errors of the people.

1Es 9:20 They pledged themselves to put away their wives, and to give rams in expiation of their error. *

[151] ἁμαρτια hamartia — MISSING THE MARK and thus used in early Greek for “mistake”. In New Testament times, its use was broadened to include any wrongdoing.

*Mt 1:21 she will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.

Ac 2:38 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forsaking of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Ac 22:16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.
[Ananias spoke these words to Paul after Paul had given his testimony. First Paul’s sight was restored to him. Then Ananias told him that God had chosen him to know His will, and to be a witness to all people.]

Mr 1:4 John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forsaking of sins. *

Ro 6:4-6
We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him so that the sinful body might be destroyed, and we might no longer be enslaved to sin.

*1Pe 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

1Jo 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Heb 10:26,27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. *

[13] ἀνομια anomia — LAWLESSNESS

*Ro 6:19 For just as you once yielded your members to uncleaness and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification.

2Co 6:14 Do not be mismated with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and iniquity? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?

2Th 2:7 For the secret of lawlessness is already at work; only there is the restraining one just now until it is out of the way.

Tit 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness and hated iniquity; therefore God, thy God, has anointed thee with the oil of gladness beyond thy comrades."

Heb 10:17 then he adds, “I will remember their sins and their misdeeds no more.”

1Jo 3:4 Every one who commits sin is guilty of lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.*

[1] παρανομια paranomia — BEYOND THE LAW, breach of the law

2 Pet 2:15,16 Forsaking the right way they have gone astray; they have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing, but was rebuked for his own transgression; a dumb ass spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.

[6] ασεβια asebia — NO REVERERANCE, irreverance

*Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth.

Titus 2:11,12 For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men, training us to renounce irreligion and worldly passions, and to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world… *

[3] παρακοη parakoā — BEYOND HEARING, unwillingness to listen

*Ro 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
[Then as through the unwillingness to listen of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, so also through the listening of the one man, the many will be constituted righteous].

2Co 10:6 being ready to punish every disobedience, when your obedience is complete.
[in readiness having to correct every unwillingness to listen, whenever is fulfilled in you a willingness to listen.] *

[7] παραβασις parabasis — STEPPING BEYOND, transgression

*Ro 2:23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?

Ro 4:15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

Heb 9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant.*

[20] παραπτωμα paraptōma — FALLING BESIDE, a false step, a blunder

Matt 6:14,15 For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

This is a wonderful and eye-opening post. That said, I have some questions on it regarding the Lord’s Prayer. I generally use the Lord’s Prayer as my daily model to follow and it was my understanding that my sin (all 8 definitions) was included in the meaning of “forgive us our trespasses,debt”. But, as I step back, now I must examine, was Jesus merely talking about mistaken type sin? Like, oops I didn’t know that was wrong when I did it? What about our struggles with the flesh and sin that comes from being momentarily overcome to be the weakness of the flesh?

As I understand it, if one is asking for forgiveness, one’s nature is not bent on rebellion against God. Therefore, any sin is forgivable by God when we ask for it. Otherwise, what hope does someone have if “this type of sin” isn’t the type that is forgiven?

All I know is that the word used in Jesus’ explantory sentence is παραπτωμα (paraptōma) which literally means “FALLING BESIDE” and therefore refers to a false step or blunder.

Thus the following is a correct translation of the sentence in Matt 6:14,15,:

From my study of salvation, I don’t think God automatically forgives us just for the asking. I think he expects us to forsake intentional wrongdoing.We have the ability to do this when we coöperate with the enabling grace of God (Titus 2:11-15), through faith.

For me obedience comes from trusting God for more future grace. With God’s wrath now removed from my vision I am loving the way Jesus did. It was by the joy set before Him that He endured the cross. The suffering death and resurrection of Christ (grace) secures the future. He who did not spare His own Son but gave Him up for us all, will He also not give us all things with Him (Future Grace).

St. John of The Cross is the mystical Doctor of Catholicism. Listen to this:

Let us go forth to behold ourselves in your beauty

This means: Let us so act that by means of this loving activity we may attain to the vision of ourselves in your beauty in eternal life. That is: That I be so transformed in your beauty that we may be alike in beauty, and both behold ourselves in your beauty, possessing then your very beauty; this, in such a way that each looking at the other may see in the other their own beauty, since both are your beauty alone, I being absorbed in your beauty; hence, I shall see myself in you in your beauty, and you will see yourself in me in your beauty; that I may resemble you in your beauty and you resemble me in your beauty, and my beauty be your beauty and your beauty be my beauty, because your very beauty will be my beauty; and thus we shall behold each other in your beauty. - St. John Of The Cross