The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Why is power given importance in scripture and theology

1 John 4 gives the spirit test.

Miracles can be deceptive. Simon Magus was a magician and magicians try to play off tricks as reality.

Remember Pharoah’s astrologers challenging Moses?

Matt. 16:14. A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah.

Randy, I think you make a good point. To use one’s knowledge and talent to heal people out of the compassion of one’s own heart is a Godly thing, no matter who you are. To add to your verse, the bible also says this: Mark 9:38-40 “Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name, and we forbade him because he does not follow us.” But Jesus said, “Do not forbid him, for no one who works a miracle in My name can soon afterword speak evil of Me. For he who is not against us is on our side.”

I listened to this Irish preacher recently and he said we must reverence everyone and he was quite right. Everyone is made in the image of God and we must reverence that image in them whatever their label| Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jew, even if they don’t like us.

Still at the same time Christ is restoring our souls so we really do have to give him the glory. He is at the center of everything a Christian does and giving him the glory draws unbelievers attention to him and it should be,that way because everyone is in need of his help and salvation.

Jesus was speaking about being called a devil, who had command over devils because He was a devil. The next 12 verses are all about casting out devils. But in response to your question, I think the Holy Spirit gives a measure of discernment. There are two key things I see as evidence of the source of miraculous works.

Who gets the glory?

If the glory goes to anyone other than Jesus I would be suspicious.

What “truth” is lifted up because of the miracle?

If faith in something advesarial to the gospel and the kingdom of God is promoted by the thing, whatever it is- I would be suspicious.

I noticed in the OT, the sorcerers of Pharoah were able to duplicate the miracles of Moses up to the third miracle. Then he left them in the dust.

Now, I aslo believe that any humble, needy soul may cry out to God at anytime, in knowledge or in ignorance, and God may deign to answer. A mother crying out for an ill child. A soldier crying out for mercy in war. God may heal or deliver anyone He wants at anytme, whether they are a Buddhist or a Hindu or whatever- because God looks on the heart, and knows it’s deepest secrets- I would not judge such things.

Jesus said there will be many who did mighty works in His name that will nevertheless have their part in the fire prepared for the devil and his angels- so it is definitely a complex subject. A man or woman may do miracles in His name through faith in His name but their heart may be greedy or arrogant- they may receive no reward, but see all their works of wood, hay and stubble burned in the fire.

I believe that the anti-christ will represent himself as an avatar of God, and decieve many, but I dont believe the Holy Spirit is incapable of enlightening believers as to the source, if they are alert and informed and in prayer- they will know.

Of course I realize that someone will think I am misinformed and that God has stopped doing healings and that casting out demons is an ancient superstition. Oh well. So be it :slight_smile:

Best in any case to walk in love, and give all glory to Christ- but as discerning ministers of Christ- a priesthood of believers.

Anyway, as an inclusivist, I look at Christ and the holy spirit, as the source of all “real and true” miracles. It really depends on whom one gives credit to or asks folks to give their attention to. ** If the person points to himself - run away - fast**.

In the Native American tradition, they say they are just hollow flutes for God to flow his power through. And it was a white (i.e. non-Native), Lutheran minister that did a biography on one of their greatest medicine men and holy people - Fools Crow. And Fools Crow was a dual spiritual citizen - a follower of the Native American traditions and a Roman Catholic.

Of course, there are traditions that believe in a monotheistic God, but don’t have a conscious belief in Christ - say Islamic Sufism, Judaism, certain indigenous traditions and Sikhism. But if the person points to God as the source and they should worship and give him thanks for the miracle, the attention and honor is in the right place.

The other clue is what do they get in return. If a person is getting wealth, power, sexual favors, etc., run away. A true saintly person doesn’t accept money for prayers, etc. Sure. You pay travel expenses and things like that - but not make them wealthy - like TV evangelists or TV healers. Payment is not charged for a miracle. The clue here? The person lives a moral life and points to something greater then himself, as the real source. In fact, many times the saintly person is giving stuff away to the people - not the other way around. Much like the holy fool tradition.

If you ever watch shows like Benny Hinn, everyone is healed immediately. If you hang around Catholic priests and charismatics, with the gift of healing (and even non-Christian sources – like Native American ceremonies) - not everyone is healed. There can be total healing, partial healing and no healing at all. And some healing can take time.

Of course, some in this forum might say that all learning must be from scripture. That really takes away from the spiritual experience of the inner light, of the Quaker tradition. Or the wisdom of the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox traditions, who have difference canons of scripture, look to things like holy tradition, etc. Or the wisdom and visions of various Christian mystics and saints. I believe each of these things have wisdom to contribute in these matters.

Of all the major religious leaders only Christ displayed the deity attribute of power.

He healed people and he cast demons out of people all the time.

The Buddha has no power. He never cast a demon out of anyone so he is not a deity as he is powerless.

I recently gave a Buddhist restaurant owner a list of possible demons…There are 16 main spirits but these sixteen include many smaller sub demons.

I told him: only Christ can cast out demons. Buddha can’t and gave him the name of a church which has a church leader who regularly heals people and casts out demons.

This guy gives the strong message of empowerment.

There are two messages…The strong one and the weak one.

Everyone should make sure they are getting the strong one because it is the enabling one.

If people don’t act like they believe that they can do all things through Christ who strengthens them then they are not strong enough to feed your soul.

I would go look for a stronger preacher who can lead by example like Christ did.

Interesting. There’s a book entitled The Pipe and Christ: A Christian-Sioux Dialogue by William Stolzman. William started out as a follower of the Native American beliefs. Then he had a calling that God wanted him to become a Roman Catholic priest. A nun even told him the same thing. He fought it for 7 years and all kinds of bad things happened. Then he finally did become a priest but still practices the Native American ways. Other Catholic priests have become Zen masters. But they are in dialogue. Much like Captain William Riker, eating the Klingon dishes.

My mom passed away on Oct. 4, 2013, at the age of 92.5 years. She was a devote Protestant Christian all her life. She also had the gift of prophesy and was born “with a veil over her eyes”. The past ten years of her life, she lived with me. By my account, she lived the life of a Christian saint. And she did join me for both Christian services and Native American meetings and ceremonies. I’m in dialogue also. Not once did my mom complain of a demon. And she could see bad spirits. Maybe some Buddhist have demons. Maybe some Christians and TV evangelists have demons. But the Roman Catholic Church insists on both an organic medical examination by a general practitioner and psychiatric examination by a psychiatrist, before they explore the demon angle of possession. And with all due respect, I would put more stock in my mom and the spiritual gifts she was born with, then I would others - like yourself.

Speaking of Indians my mother was half Cherokee and some people claim the Cherokees descended from the Lost Tribes of Israel. My mother was a poet with a prophetic gift

I am out of the Pilgrims on my father’s side…so you could say I am Thanksgiving personified…lol.

It wouldn’t surprise me a bit if God took most of the Native Americans because they were more spiritual than we are. People living close to nature are usually more spiritual and Western culture especially since The Age of Enlightenment has tried to over rationalize everything and practically made a false idol out of human reason but humans don’t reason as well as God does so why does anyone venerate it? It is just a tool we use.

Christianity is big enough without wandering off into other religions though. A very high percentage of Christians don’t even understand demonology or the gifts of the Spirit or the Fruit of the Spirit and they want to dabble in New Age and Daosim and Eastern religion?

I had a bad thing happen to me once when someone brought an eastern idol into my house but I won’t reveal more…it is too personal for a board.

My own mother who was half Indian had all the reason to play with Indian totems, etc. but she never did…Her father almost full blooded Native American took his children to Christian services.

Never heard anyone adore Christ like my mother…She probably would have thrown a totem pole in the garbage can…She knew exactly how much she owed to Jesus Christ and he inspired her to do some really unique works.

Paul spoke about elementary principles of the universe in Colossians 2. He spoke about those who were puffed up in their carnal minds, standing on “visions they had seen” and “losing hold on the head”. In my opinion this happens everywhere. Among Christian zealots and denominational proselytes, as well as among every tradition of the world.

8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority.

I think Buddhism is in some ways a beautiful religion. It is older than Christianity, and developed in the world that was without the light of YHWH and the oracles of God. Truly amazing. But every true light resolves unde rthe name of Jesus, because of HIM- not just the name, and the teaching that springs from WHO HE IS- not just the words. Those words can be corrupted over years of the actions of men with a personal agenda. The deficiencies of even the truest Buddhist will only be resolved in the light of Jesus Christ in the day when God judges the secrets of men’s hearts through Jesus Christ.

My opinions about Hinduism are different. I think there are true hearted Hindu’s, but the religion itself is corrupt from the getgo- just my opinon- in similar ways to the mythologies of the Egyptians, Greeks, Romans, Assryians, etc.

In the end, this age is for the dawning of the image of Jesus Christ in mankind- an inward image that perfects love in the freedom of grace. The name, and His words, can only remain “the incorruptible seed” as they implant the divine nature within us by grace through faith in Him, for WHO HE IS.

Receive the word implanted, which is able to save/deliver/heal your souls.

The renewed mind sees Christ more and more clearly as the shadows and veils of elementary principles of tradition and myth and human imagination are overwhelmed by the dawn of “the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ”(2 Cor 3-5).

Not all of these traditions and cultural identities are inherently evil, and some of them are in fact beneficial, but imo they(the beneficial ones) are all absorbed in the full light of Jesus Christ, even as the seven colors of a rainbow resolve into pure, clear light. That light is His character and His personal identity as the “fulness of deity in bodily form”.

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.(Heb 1:1-3)

Jesus is the heir of all things by right of WHO HE IS, in the divine nature, in love, in humility, in forgiveness, in service- “Before Abraham was, I AM.” Alpha, Omega. The Logos(reason, seed)- spoken by God, the Word made flesh, the light that lights every person who comes into the world, transforming His disciples by grace through faith into the same image- many sons unto glory, a kingdom of priests unto God, carrying the word of reconciliation until all are reconciled.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

As John wrote in the gospel, “…and we beheld His glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth…and of His fulness have we all received, with grace upon grace(grace multiplied, exponential grace)”… That grace is to bring forth His fulness in us, reflecting His image from within.

“Have in yourselves the same attitude whch was in Christ Jesus, who being found in very form as God, thought not equalty with God a thing to be grasped but emptied Himself, taking on the form of a servant and becoming obedient to the point of death on a cross. Therefore God also highly exalted Him, giving Him the name above every name, that at the name of Jesus Christ every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God, the Father.”