The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Why is the not-yet not extended to people in Hell now?

Spiritual and physical death being destroyed is not contingent upon unbelievers continuing living in them. It is contingent upon the completed work of the cross and people receiving it in this life. This age of the already not-yet is coming to an end… Hint: (the consummation of this “present evil age” when Jesus comes back) Paul M eloquently puts it this way:

“The already–not yet hermeneutic works when we’re in the already–not yet age, but it was seen to be required to be employed in the age of the not yet, i.e., the age of consummation, where the already–not yet tension is done away with. The already–not yet tension doesn’t apply to the age of consummation, and to hold a doctrine which seems to demand that it does, seems ad hoc. Similar issues arise with 1 Corinthians 15. We note in this passage that Christ’s second advent is referred to. Until Christ comes again, we are in the intermediate rule, the already–not yet. Christ’s life, death, resurrection, final judgment, are all one event, spread out over time. Since Christ has been raised from the dead, history is in an important sense over. All that remains is an epilogue before the final chapter is read. At Christ’s return, the kingdom will be consummated, and the already–not yet done away with”.

**Don’t you see, UR’s, your UR position requires there to be an already–not yet in the age of what is now the not yet. Unless your one of those UR’s that tries to tap dance around this by adding ages to the final age to come. Both which are totally foreign to scripture! **

Question: if you believe the not-yet(reconciliation) continues into the age to come ( which would come at a high hermeneutical and exegetical price) why is the not-yet(reconciliation) not continued in this age? I’m sure there are people in hell right now and some who have been there for thousands of years would like this not-yet(reconciliation) to be extended to them. Why is God waiting for them to be resurrected unto judgment and not find them recorded in the BOL and throw them into the LOF? Why bother to do all that when He can extend the not-yet(reconciliation) in this age so the people in hell can be found recorded in the BOL?

Have you read through Jason’s rather extensive treatment of this? It starts here: Col 1, 1 Cor 15, Already-Not Yet, and the Parousia

He just posted it yesterday evening, so I wasn’t sure if you’d seen it. :slight_smile:

Yes, I will address Jason’s comments later but I would like to know :

Question: if you believe the not-yet(reconciliation) continues into the age to come ( which would come at a high hermeneutical and exegetical price) why is the not-yet(reconciliation) not continued in this age? I’m sure there are people in hell right now and some who have been there for thousands of years would like this not-yet(reconciliation) to be extended to them. Why is God waiting for them to be resurrected unto judgment and not find them recorded in the BOL and throw them into the LOF? Why bother to do all that when He can extend the not-yet(reconciliation) in this age so the people in hell can be found recorded in the BOL?

Snitz,

What troubles me with Jason’s 18 page response (among other things primarily it being 18 pages :wink: ) is this:

**1. A few other scholars are quoted in argument that the Parousia is as already completed as the Incarnation-Crucifixion-Resurrection-Ascension, and indeed that these are holistically one great divine act; but I have no problem in the least agreeing with that.

  1. The final age began already, almost two thousand years ago, with the descent of the Holy Spirit upon the disciples. And began several days previously to that, with the Ascension. And began several weeks previously to that, with the Resurrection. And began a few days previously to that, with the sacrifice on the cross. (“Today you shall be with Me in the paradise”!) And began a few years previously to that, with the start of Jesus’ ministry. (“The kingdom of God has come near!–repent and trust in this good news!”) And began a few days previously to that, with the baptism of Jesus unto a commitment to the sending away of sin. And began a few decades previously to that, with the birth of Jesus. And began a few months previously to that, with the Incarnation of Jesus. And even, depending on how one reckons the early testimony of Genesis, began shortly after God’s creation of rationally active humans!

  2. We have been living in the final age already for almost 2000 years, maybe much longer.

  3. that the Parousia cannot involve a process to completion after the lake of fire judgment?!?
    **
    Is this the biblical position of what the Parousia is and what it entails?

are you now open to the multiple ages view of Scripture then?

Nooooooooo! :laughing: There are 2 ages, Corp. This “present evil age” and the age to come. Jason is saying the Parousia has already begun or completed ( and it hasn’t) and that were living in the final age for almost 2000 years ( and we have not been). This current age is not the final age.

Paul dealt with this sore of thing in 2 thess 2:2-3.

2 Thess 2:2-3

**2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;**

ok mate, sorry i found that rather hard to follow :blush:
i’m happy to disagree on the number of ages, my theology doesn’t rest on that.

Corp

There are 2 ages, Corp. This “present evil age” and the age to come. Jason is saying the Parousia has already begun or completed ( and it hasn’t) and that were living in the final age for almost 2000 years ( and we have not been). This current age is not the final age.

Paul dealt with this sort of thing in 2 thess 2:2-3.

2 Thess 2:2-3

**2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;**

3 Things have to happen for the Parousia to happen;

  1. the fallen away of the church ( its happening now)
  2. The man of sin or the son of perdition be revealed ( people refer him as the anti-christ scripture refers him as the beast…this has not happened yet)
  3. The Great Tribulation has not yet happened. ( Jesus comes back after the tribulation)

i’m not participating in this, i was merely asking if your view on ages has changed. you’ve answered that, and i’ll let you got in with this.
i can’t be bothered to remember the argument that you’re regurgitating here of Paul M’s, but i remember not being convinced by it then. God bless!

This has nothing to do with PaulM and everything to do with what the Parousia is and when it happens.

3 Things have to happen for the Parousia to happen;

  1. the fallen away of the church ( its happening now)
  2. The man of sin or the son of perdition be revealed ( people refer him as the anti-christ scripture refers him as the beast…this has not happened yet)
  3. The Great Tribulation has to happen. ( Jesus comes back after the tribulation)

:laughing: God bless, Rev
i’m not being drawn into this

Corp

Ok, just saying Jason Pratt is wrong and Paul dealt with such people who held his belief in 2 Thess 2:2-3. He told them what must happen before Jesus comes back ( Parousia). 1 has started and the other 2 have not. the final age has not begun and the Parousia has not happen yet! The final age begins after Jesus comes back! :open_mouth:

You almost got it right, are you post -trib? The “rapture” comes before the man of sin is revealed. Then after that the tribulation in which the antichrist reigns, then at the end of the tribulation, Christ comes back.

Aaron,

It’s interesting that you quote PaulM’s “epic reply” as a challenge to us, and explicitly a portion of his reply which was grounded specifically on the notion that “Christ’s life, death, resurrection, final judgment, are all one event, spread out over time. Since Christ has been raised from the dead, history is in an important sense over.” PaulM’s argument being that since it is over it won’t continue, it’s only “already” and cannot be “not yet”.

One of my replies was that this runs directly counter to PaulM’s own acknowledgment that the already/not-yet theme is an important and true part of Christian theology, and that if PaulM’s principle application held any water at all it would shut down this already/not-yet application at the point of Christ’s completion on the cross, leaving Christ unable to save anyone afterward from sin (or else that the concept would actually point toward a hyper version of ultra-universalism!)

But anyway, what’s interesting is that you quote PaulM and his rationale against us (calling it “eloquent”), and then you yourself say you’re bothered by things I said where I agreed with him on what you yourself quoted from him against us.

This seems inconsistent, to put it politely. :slight_smile:

Meanwhile, since I very consistently affirm the already/not-yet paradigm, there is no inconsistency in me agreeing with PaulM (where you quoted him against us) that the Parousia is as already completed as the Incarnation-Crucifixion-Resurrection-Ascension, because I obviously go right on to affirm that the Parousia is still on the way. (I could have hardly argued what I did in detail about 1 Cor 15 if I wasn’t affirming that the Parousia is still on the way, to give only one of many many many examples I could cite where I affirm that. My exegesis of RevJohn routinely affirms it, too, to give another example you ought to be personally familiar with. :wink: )

The Parousia is already completed from God’s perspective, but not yet from our position in natural history, but it’s guaranteed to occur in history thanks to it already being completed from from God’s perspective over and beyond natural spatio-temporal history.

If you’re complaining that I’m denying the Parousia is still on the way, you’re barking up the wrong tree, because I’m affirming that it’s still on the way, and as far as I know I have consistently and continually affirmed this in everything I’ve ever said or written to anyone on the topic for the past 35 years or so since I started studying the Bible in any systematic way at all.

On the other hand, neither have I ever once taught anyone (nor do I specifically believe myself) that the Day of Christ is at hand, i.e. about to come in the next few weeks or months or years, not least because I don’t identify anyone as the final Antichrist having come yet. (I tend to agree that the greatest tribulation must happen first, by the way, which it certainly hasn’t, and that it’ll last no less than seven years.)

So St. Paul’s remonstrance from 2 Thess that you quoted would not possibly apply to me in any fashion.

The end, moving on.

As to the final age, the age of eonian life and the kingdom of God/the heavens, having already begun: once again I also affirm (with the scriptures) that it’s still to come; but because the scriptures also routinely say that the final age has begun (in various ways) with the Incarnation and ministry of Christ, you need not complain to me about my also affirming what they also affirm. Or you can deny you have eonian life in you already as a Christian (the life specially involved with the Day of the Lord to come), and that you have joined the kingdom of God–in which case a lot of us will probably have some sharp things to say about your propensity to behave like a religious authority around here. :wink: But hopefully some of us will evangelically offer you the opportunity in Christ to begin experiencing eonian life in the kingdom now, and not wait until later. :slight_smile:

(Personally I wouldn’t go so far as to say the final age has started early in the story of Genesis, but I know quite a lot of people think we’re in the seventh “Day” already based on what I would call a misreading there–it was the standard interpretation in Southern Baptist churches all during the time I was growing up for example–so I allowed for the possibility that it has been going on in some fashion for longer than the Incarnation.)

Anyway, since I’m not denying but rather affirming that the Day of the Lord is still to come (as well as having already started), your problem with me denying it is still to come is barking up the wrong tree again. You can have a problem with me believing both if you wish, since that would be accurate to my actual beliefs.

The end with that, too, then, moving on.

Having quoted me on three things you had a problem with me saying, as though I was denying they were also still to come (which I was not), you appear to then quote me on denying that the Parousia can involve a process to completion after the lake of fire judgment. But since I have been consistently affirming this (including in the 18 page reply you’re referencing), not denying it, since I became a Christian universalist (which is the main distinction for why I am a purgatorial universalist instead of an ultra-universalist), I will suppose you forgot the previous format of your presentation in your excitement, and stated your own belief there (that the Parousia cannot involve a process to completion after the lake of fire judgment) over against what I actually believe, which is what you have the actual problem with.

Since any consideration of that would take reams longer than any single comment, I’ll move on to what seems to be the main reason you launched this thread.

PaulM afterward acknowledged that if universalists find scriptural support for the already/not-yet to be extended past the 2nd Coming, that would go a long way toward answering his argument. I had noted that one place we find it is in 1 Cor 15 itself, which I also noted he didn’t bother to examine in detail on that topic.

Be that as it may: as it happens I don’t think he extended his critique in the other direction, as you’re doing below, and that seems a fair enough tactic, which I suspect he’d agree with in principle, too.

I don’t think acknowledging that the not-yet reconciliation continues into the age to come, comes at a high hermeneutical and exegetical price at all, or I wouldn’t believe scripture testifies to it. (On the contrary I routinely use the same hermenutical and exegetical techniques on this topic as I do when arriving at trinitarian results.)

On the other hand, I don’t recall offhand seeing much scriptural testimony to the effect that the offer of reconciliation is extended to sinners during the interim. Which is why I rarely talk about it being a doctrine testified in scripture, and typically reference 1 Peter when I do, along with some possible hints of it elsewhere.

If I thought the scriptures said absolutely nothing about it, I still wouldn’t think it impossible–I have no conceptual problem believing that the offer of reconciliation applies in the interim and is accepted, and rather an expectation of it happening. That there is apparent testimony to the effect that some disembodied spirits in the interim continue rebelling and continue being punished until the general resurrection, is no more evidence against spirits in the interim repenting and being saved from their sins, than testimony to the effect that some embodied spirits (namely humans) continue rebelling for any length of time before death would be evidence against some embodied spirits repenting and being saved from their sins. The categories are not mutually exclusive in the sense that the occurrence of one precludes any occurrence of the other.

To the extent that soul sleep occurs instead of conscious existence (for which there is some scriptural evidence either way, and against which I have no theological coherency problem either way), then it is a non-problem of course. But I expect (including from scriptural evidence) that Gehenna starts for at least some sinners before the general resurrection.

Jason

Fair enough, my apologies for my misunderstanding. I want to address some things you said in your 18 page response:

  1. You said " The final age began already, almost two thousand years ago" What what? I have a major problem with that statement. Jesus said there are two ages. This age and the age to come. Paul calls this current age the “present evil age”. I know you list things that have happen at different times and places in this present age but those all fall under the umbrella of this “present evil age”. The final age or the age to come does not begin until after Jesus comes back( Parousia) on the last day or the last day of this “present evil age”… with that being said… How has the final age begun already, almost two thousand years ago? I’m beginning to sense that you are getting dispensations mixed up with ages. Are you a dispensationalist? If so, each dispensation falls under the umbrella of this “present evil age”.

  2. You said "We have been living in the final age already for almost 2000 years, maybe much longer". Again, how have we been living in the final age already for almost 2000 years, maybe much longer when the final age or the age to come has not happen yet?

  3. You said that you don’t believe " ** the Parousia cannot involve a process to completion after the lake of fire judgment?!?"** The problem with this is that you are saying that the judgment of mankind recorded in Rev 20:11-15 is not final and that the penalty rendered is temporary and pardonable. Jesus said blaspheming the HS is not pardonable in this age or the age to come ( where the judgment will take place) The finality of this individual judgment is unpardonable. Hint (where we get the unpardonable sin).

Moving on…

:confused: If God is extending the not-yet reconciliation to people in hell right now and is accepted… where in scripture is this happening and explain** Who** is preaching to them and the process in which they exit Hell. Are angels escorting them out of hell and into heaven upon acceptance?

If God is not extending the not-yet reconciliation to people in hell right now, why not? Why is God waiting for them to be resurrected unto judgment and not find them recorded in the BOL and throw them into the LOF? Why bother to do all that when He can extend the not-yet(reconciliation) in this age so the people in hell can be found recorded in the BOL?

And Finally…

:open_mouth: You sound not sure. There is only one truth, Jason. God is not the author of confusion, man is. God does not write evidence of soul sleep and conscious existence and say “pick one you’re right either way”…It is either or… Luke 16:19-31 is crystal clear of conscious existence in the afterlife. So, please save your so called “soul sleep” scriptures.

Gehenna is symbolic of the lake of fire not hell. Hades/Hell starts for **all **unbelievers before the general resurrection.

Post-trib is the truth of the bible. No, read 2 Thess 2:3 again…the day of Christ is the rapture/resurrection and it shall not come except the falling away of the church happens and the man of sin or son of perdition is revealed. Not before, but after. The church goes through the tribulation and then we are raptured/resurrected.

Also Matt 24:15.

Seriously? LOL, the biblical truth of the bible? Dude you are incredibly sure of yourself. Good for you. Too bad you’re wrong :astonished: , well at least I think so, and many christians do too whether UR, ECT, or anni

The rapture is about as unbiblical as it comes. There’s one verse in the entire bible, that supports the entire doctrine, and the word doesn’t mean to take people away. Its to come and escort Christ here.

The falling away already took place as the apostles were dying off, Paul says everyone abandoned him. John was an outcast until after the temple was destroyed. Most of the christians turned back to Judaism until Jerusalem was sacked.

The man of sin, well thats you, and me, or at least who we think we are. I honestly don’t know why I’m even typing this right now, because I might as well be writing in klingon from the POV you have. But alas maybe something will quicken you with what I’m writing. Gehenna already happened. Its past tense. Oh I know you can’t accept preterism, well I’m not a preterist. And as for Jesus returning. He was, and is, and is to come. You can wait for a physical Jesus to come and kill all those bad guys, but I think you’re going to wait for a long time. Now we know no man after the flesh. Christ is coming back, and already is, in His body, you and me broski. All creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sonS of God. The book of Revelation is about that revealing, which is the unveiling apokalupto. Christ in you is the hope of glory. Not Christ out there. You are the temple of the Holy Spirit. There is not going to be a physical temple for a literal antichrist to defile. God doesn’t dwell in temples made with human hands. He dwells in us. The word became flesh and tabernacled among us. The only temple that can be defiled is you and me, and nothing from the outside can defile us. The the anti-christ is your carnal mind, which is at emnity with God, it cannot accept the things of the spirit, we put ourselves on the throne, saying we are gods (but we will die like men).

Without a physical temple that God dwells in to be defiled I don’t see how the premillenial scenario can stand. The temple won’t be defiled, because God never dwelt there anyway. Its like saying someone setting up a statue of zeus (or whatever the idol is supposed to be) in a museum is the abomination that causes desolation, if a literal temple get built it will be no more the home of God than a museum. Oh yeah and Israel has nothing to do with that small tract of land in the middle east anymore. Israel is, yep, you and me. A jew is not one outwardly but one inwardly. The old is gone, the new has come. The old is physical israel, the new is spiritual israel. Sinai vs. Zion, Hagar vs. Sarah, Adam vs. Jesus.

I’m sure I just wasted my time even typing this because I doubt you’ll read it, but oh well

I respect that, redhot. But I’m not buying what you are selling. Your views are not evangelical and certainly at no time have they been the position of the church. Correct me if I’m wrong but I don’t think I have read anything from you that remotely reflects the title of this website (Evangelical Universalist) most of your views are wayyyyy liberal in left field and foreign to scripture…

I’m kinda confused, Revival. Do you think that the afterlife is somehow the “age to come”? And if so, why do you think that? What hermeneutic are you using? Because I sure don’t see that in scripture…

No its foreign to you, and most of christianity, and probably many on this board, but that doesn’t make it wrong, again you are appealing to authority (manmade authority at that, that I wrote about in the other thread about orthodoxy). 20,000 denominations can’t be wrong (that is to be sang like adam sandler in lunch lady land: 50 million elvis fans can’t be wrong)

Everything I just wrote is pretty much direct quotes out of the Bible. So lets go through them which ones don’t you believe?

  1. You are the temple of the Holy Spirit
  2. God does not dwell in temples made with human hands
  3. Christ in you is the hope of glory
  4. Creation waits for the revealing of the sons (plural) of God
  5. Everyone abandoned Paul
  6. The carnal mind is at emnity with God
  7. The opening verse of the book of revelation is (and lays out the purpose of the book): The Revelation(unveiling) of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants––things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified(given in signs) it by His angel to His servant John,
  8. Rome sacked Jerusalem in 70 a.d. destroyed the physical temple and burned the bodies of all those who stayed and didn’t flee in the valley of Ben Hinnom aka Gehenna
  9. A jew is not one outward but one inward
  10. Hagar represents physical Jerusalem which is cast out, Sarah represents spiritual Jerusalem

A couple more things, Jesus said tear down this temple and in three days I will rebuild it.
He also said the kingdom of heaven is at hand, not far away, not in the future some time
He also said my kingdom is not of this world
Jesus was revealed IN Paul

1John 3:2 Beloved, we are God’s children now; what we will be has not yet been revealed. What we do know is this: when he is revealed, we will be like him, for we will see him as he is.

I know there are a lot of dots to be connected between all those, and its quite foreign to you. But if you believe in the trinity, you have to make quite a few more jumps than what I’ve laid out here I think. I used to read people writing this type of stuff and think they were bat**** crazy, until God opened my eyes, and spoke to me as audibly as He ever has (not that I expect you to trust the personal revelations I’ve received)