The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Why is the not-yet not extended to people in Hell now?

The judgment mentioned in Hebrews 9:27 is the final judgment recorded in Rev 20:10-15 which indeed involves eternal separation from God in the lake of fire. When someone is judged and given the death penalty in our court system is it used to correct the criminal? Of course not! No different in Rev 20:10-15.

Btw, a Christian can have his/her name blotted out of the book of life by their lifestyles. Rev 3:5. There are going to be many Christians who are not going to be found recorded in the BOL at final judgment. Matt 7:21-23.

Are you actually comparing corrupt sinful man who made these laws to God’s? :open_mouth:

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

John 5:4-5 “for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.”

True Christians/believers can not be blotted out of the book of life. A true Christian/beliver can not lose their “salvation”…

There’s an idea floating around the Church that the “overcomers” are some elite class of Christian for whom the rewards promised in the Bible are reserved exclusively. The rest of us will escape punishment but won’t receive any rewards.

But the term is used in each of the 7 letters of Rev. 2-3 to identify those who resist the criticism being emphasized in the letter. At Ephesus they overcome the temptation toward religious work. At Smyrna it’s the fear of persecution they overcome. At Pergamum and Thyatira it’s idolatry, At Sardis it’s dead orthodoxy, at Philadelphia it’s drifting from the truth, and at Laodicea it’s apathetic worldliness. All these are over come by remaining true to the simplicity of the Gospel by neither adding anything to it nor taking anything away. As with everything else in the Bible, it’s a matter of keeping the faith.

It was John who used this word and it was he who gave us the meaning He intended. In 1 John 5:4-5 he wrote, “for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God.”

As for Rev. 3:5 the Lord was simply exhorting those from the Church at Sardis to wake up from their dead religion, be born again in their faith and energized by His Spirit. He said that once they did this they would be saved forever because He would never blot their names out of the Book of Life. You can’t use this verse to say that He will blot some names out, because those who don’t have the Spirit of God in them were never in the Book in the first place. There’s no indication that those He’s warning had ever received the Spirit even though they had heard the Gospel.

The Church of Sardis represents the mainline denominations of today. There are many there who hear the gospel and agree with it intellectually, but they’ve never obeyed the Lord’s commandment to be born again. (John 3:3) Others, a much smaller group have done so, are saved, and will never be rejected. The letter to Sardis presents one of the clearest arguments in Scripture that we must choose to be saved and once we do nothing can reverse it.

SOURCE: gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-t … of-rev-35/

Where do you think we get our judicial laws from, Caroleem?
And yes Christians can and some do lose their salvation. Matt 7:21-23.

Jesus was not referring to actual born again believers. Those people He is referring to never KNEW Him.

Excellent point, Caroleem! If he was speaking to a Christian, it would be a person that He had known and then cast out. In this case, just because someone claims to be a believer, it doesn’t make him a believer. This would be the case of a counterfeit Christian, not a Christian who loses his salvation.

Better hope it’s not you then eh :wink:

It’s interesting…above somewhere Revival wrote,

**"yet we see billions upon billions thrown into the LOF at final judgment. “, and elsewhere he wrote " Btw, a Christian can have his/her name blotted out of the book of life by their lifestyles. Rev 3:5. There are going to be many Christians who are not going to be found recorded in the BOL at final judgment. Matt 7:21-23.”, **

yet he also said that folks shouldn’t fear, yet that was exactly the reason I used to have fear. Knowing that most of humanity of all times and places was going to suffer for eternity in the lake of fire, and furthermore, knowing that even amongst your own people that other Christians would also be thrown into the lake of fire for getting something wrong**, was enough to make me afraid. What if I was one that Jesus said “I never knew you” to? When most people don’t get saved, and even the saved aren’t safe, it can make for a bit of insecurity. It kind of makes you wonder if the world sees this version of the gospel as “good news”. I am curious though how exactly Revival “saw” billions upon billions being thrown into the lake of fire? His inside information is amazing!

**(for example, Revival said that Sherman might get his name blotted out of the book of life for believing wrongly about hell. Imagine that, loving Christ but going to hell because you were wrong in thinking that Jesus was going to save them all :open_mouth: !! You would think that the father of mercy would rebuke us at that point and show us mercy)

The sad part I fear is that the vast majority of evangelicals would resonate more with the stuff revival’s been posting for the last month than any of the other expressed viewpoints.

I’ve had these same weird discussions with people at church where it’s like a badge of honor to hold extremely inconsistent positions and then to have no other defense except to emphatically state it’s believable because it’s the word of god.

Of course I too at one time was trying to stand on what I was told was the word of god but thankfully, and not because of my own merit, I’ve been set free and now believe in a God who invites, “come let’s reason together”.

He likes all my silly questions.

The sad part I fear is that the vast majority of evangelicals would resonate more with the stuff revival’s been posting for the last month than any of the other expressed viewpoints.

I’ve had these same weird discussions with people at church where it’s like a badge of honor to hold extremely inconsistent positions and then to have no other defense except to emphatically state it’s believable because it’s the word of god.

Of course I too at one time was trying to stand on what I was told was the word of god but thankfully, and not because of my own merit, I’ve been set free and now believe in a God who invites, “come let’s reason together”.

He likes all my silly questions.

It’s interesting to me because the more I have debates like this, the more confident in my position that I become. I think, “Is that all they have to back their position up with?” And I used to be one of those hard core conservative ECT evangelicals. There’s no way I could have changed position without the support of scripture because a logical or philosophically compelling argument isn’t enough for me. It needs to be there in the scriptures otherwise I can’t go there. I am now a hopeful universalist. I can’t go so far as to say I’m a dogmatic universalist because I think the scriptures still leave things open in certain ways, although I’m pretty dogmatic about there NOT being eternal punishment because it simply contradicts the scriptures in too many places. I still see an opening for annihilation - there are some very strong arguments for that position. But the overall arguments for a cohesive ECT theology are horrible! I still worry sometimes about being wrong, but I pray and ask God to continue to teach me the right way to go and hopefully His Spirit is guiding us along as He sees fit.

How do you get born again?

By giving your life to Jesus and making Him Lord of your life. Surrendering your sinful nature to the Lord. Trusting Him in all that that you do and say. Trusting His word…I don’t really know how else to explain it that doesn’t sound like your usual fundamentalist.

John 3:3–7
Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Nicodemus said to him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

John 1:12–13 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

God of course has to draw someone first…we can not or will not do it on our own.

Ephesians 2:8-9 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast.”

Anyone else care to elaborate on this?

So… how do I know if God drew me or not?

Should I just do nothing until (if) he, err, draws me?

Bird, the scriptures say that it is God’s desire that none should perish and that all come to eternal life! It is in his heart of hearts to extend salvation to you and the bible says that “today is the day of salvation!” We were made to have friendship with God, so I say just go for it. In the New Testament book of Romans it says “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” What do you think of Jesus?

There are OT verses testifying to this as a possibility, yes, as you ought to be very well aware.

However, you continue to conveniently misunderstand me so you can go shooting off after something I don’t believe: I don’t have to call in soul sleep, partial or otherwise, because I DON’T believe God refuses to extend reconciliation to people in hades right now.

I think we’re going to have to have a talk soon about your notion of God’s own evangelism though, as the position you’ve been taking here and elsewhere involves the notion that God does not evangelize anyone at all after the cross (thus also doesn’t evangelize anyone in hell). Or rather after Christ’s descent into hades, which you have had to admit involves the evangelization of people who were not saved yet, who had died in their sins and were saved by Christ post-mortem. That was a “now” fact of evangelism, by God, to unsaved people in hades, even if only people who were already unsaved “believers” before they died.

Although, your arguments on that were invalid and didn’t take into account contextual detail–unlike what I argued from those verses. Indeed there is no point even calling it evangelization, as St. Peter does, unless Christ was exhorting them to repent of their sins and accept the good news. So they weren’t only unsaved “believers” who only needed rescuing from the Plunderer (as though Abraham and Moses needed mere rescuing post-mortem!) They were people who hadn’t yet repented of their sins.

I think you understand well enough that if God successfully evangelizes the unsaved out of hades in the past, there is no reason why He cannot continue to do so now. Any speculations of mine (on OT grounds) about whether some people in hades are in soul sleep and some not, are (as I myself specifically said) entirely beside the point.

Lets talk now. You obviously don’t understand fully the difference between salvation in the OT vs the NT. I’m going to try to explain this again so it is better understood. :wink:

How did the people like Noah, Abraham, Moses, David go to heaven since they died before Jesus was ever born? They didn’t go straight to heaven. They went to paradise not heaven. How many people in the days of Noah preached Jesus and you must be born again? None.

So, Before the cross, people before the law and people under the law were unable to be born again prior to the completed work of the cross. We repent unto the finish work of the cross. Under the law people repented to the law. But what did the pre-law people do? These pre-law and under the law people died with a sin nature. The only way to heaven is to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. Accept a man be born again and receive spiritual eternal life they cannot enter heaven.

Pre-cross Sheol/Hades was divided into 2 parts. One held the ones accounted righteous. One held the unrighteous or wicked.(as pictured in Luke 16:19-31) This was set up this way due to the fact no man could enter heaven with a sin nature and Jesus had yet to go to the cross for life to be available to them.

So when Jesus completed his work on the cross he went down to Sheol/Hades to release the life of God they had been waiting for to enter heaven and led captivity captive or a multitude of captives to heaven. (Eph 4:8). Jesus emptied Abraham’s bosom or paradise.(Matt 27:52-53) But he did not empty the place in Sheol/Hades that kept the wicked. Only the ones who repented before they drowned in the flood during the days of Noah were released. The unrepentant remained.

This only happened this way due to the fact the OT people needed spiritual life they could not receive while alive that only Jesus could give to them to go to heaven. Post-cross people have access to this life that the pre-cross people did not have. There is provision already made for post-cross people to receive this spiritual life while they are alive therefore the OT process to receive spiritual life is no longer needed nor will it happen again. :wink:

Now( post-cross) when people die they either go to Heaven or Hades to be held until they are resurrected to eternal life or eternal death.(Rev 20:10-15) The people who go to Hades have no chance to get out.(Luke 16:26) therefore God is not evangelizing anyone in Hell/Hades, and no one ever leaves, Jason. Hope I cleared up any misunderstanding you may had with my view. This totally destroys your not-yet reconciliation theory being extended to people in hell, btw. Whether you acknowledge this or not won’t change the truth, Jason. :wink:

You obviously don’t understand that you completely undermine the point of your thread every time you acknowledge that some people were saved by Christ from hades post-mortem. But I’m going to try to explain this again so it is better understood. :wink:

How many righteous people died in the Flood according to Peter? None. Peter says Christ preached to those imprisoned in hades who were disobedient, and you’re rather stubbornly ignoring that portion of what he says in order to make out that he was only talking about people in the non-punishment part of hades.

Since I do understand and account for that, and you haven’t done so yet, you are in less than no position to try to teach me or anyone else what 1 Peter is supposed to really mean.

Since I have always understood and agreed with this, including previously in this thread, your attempt at claiming I don’t fully understand this is (once again) utterly pointless.

Which are people Peter isn’t talking about.

When Gentiles who do not have the Law do by nature the things of the law, they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them. That was true then (or there could have been no distinction between righteous Noah and those who died in their stubbornness and were imprisoned in hades, who are the people Peter is explicitly talking about), and it will be true in the day of the Lord to come before the judgment seat of Christ (per Rom 2).

Including, as you have said before (and as I agreed), the only people you think were saved by Christ post-mortem in His descent into hades. (Who were not imprisoned due to stubborn disobedience but who went to the non-punishment portion of hades.)

But elsewhere (including in this thread) you vociferously insist that no one who dies with a sin nature can be saved post-mortem. You have to do that in order to keep from even allowing the possibility that reconciliation is extended to people post-mortem, whether in any “now” before judgment, or after judgment.

(I know you meant “except”, btw.)

Which I have also agreed, including in this thread, and have always fully understood. So once again your attempt to “explain” this to me as though I don’t “fully understand” how people are saved, including before the cross, is utterly pointless.

Still agreeing, still have always said this and fully understood this, too.

That you consider the blessed righteous in paradise to be “captives” is rather self-contradictive (and Paul in Ephesians doesn’t specify them as the blessed righteous in paradise, so he cannot be accused of a similar self-contradiction); but I definitely agree (including above in this thread) that Christ led the blessed righteous in paradise out of hades, and that He led captivity captive (including in the sense of a multitude of captives to heaven–which obviously I believe even more strongly and fully than you do!)

Actually I agree with both; but I don’t have to believe that Christ emptied sheol/hades of the wicked to believe He brought some of them out, too, from their captivity to Satan.

Which happens to be exactly the opposite of what Peter says. He says Christ preached to the dead that they may live in the spirit, paralleling preaching this with our evangelization now (and paralleling “the dead” with those currently impenitent sinners who try to lead Christians back into the same excesses), and specifies that he’s talking about those who had been imprisoned for disobedience.

I fully agree that the unrepentant remained and still remain in hades.

So once again your explanation leaves out the only point of actual contention between us on this topic, namely Peter’s specification that he’s talking about sinners imprisoned in hades for their disobedience and impenitence. But that point of contention is so important that you have to pretend Peter said he was only talking about the blessed righteous in paradise instead.

Yes: thanks to Jesus bringing it to them either way; even bringing it to them post-mortem in hades.

The pre-cross process was for them to receive it thanks to Jesus Christ; the post-cross process was (and is, and shall be) for them to receive it thanks to Jesus Christ. That the (relatively) righteous dead no longer inhabit the paradise of hades is the main difference; but Peter wasn’t talking about those.

(That you can wink or smirk about the idea of lost people never receiving spiritual life, shows the true depth of your concern and love for lost people, btw. But that’s another thread.)

Aside from Luke 16 never saying they have no chance to get out ever, Luke 16 is a pre-cross situation, not a post-cross. And 1 Peter, which are the verses you were supposed to be discussing and explaining (but which you have not-surprisingly largely ignored), indicates those in the non-paradise portion of hades have hope in Jesus to get out.

Except for the people you yourself acknowledge leave hades after being evangelized by God.

But you have to keep putting it in such an absolute negative way because you aren’t comfortable even with that much post-mortem evangelism and salvation.

1 Peter still counts against (if not totally destroys) your theory about reconciliation not being extended to people in hell, btw. Whether you acknowledge this or not won’t change the truth, Aaron. :wink:

Jason

Why did you completely ignore this?:

**Pre-cross Sheol/Hades was divided into 2 parts. One held the ones accounted righteous. One held the unrighteous or wicked.(as pictured in Luke 16:19-31) This was set up this way due to the fact no man could enter heaven with a sin nature and Jesus had yet to go to the cross for life to be available to them.

This only happened this way due to the fact the OT people needed spiritual life they could not receive while alive that only Jesus could give to them to go to heaven. Post-cross people have access to this life that the pre-cross people did not have. There is provision already made for post-cross people to receive this spiritual life while they are alive therefore the OT process to receive spiritual life is no longer needed nor will it happen again. **

Your notion of “completely ignoring” is as faulty as your other exegesis. Not only did I quote from each of those paragraphs in sequence (as well as from the paragraphs in between them), I agreed with all of both those paragraphs except your statement at the end. Which I also quoted and commented on. (Including a parenthetical comment that your winking or smirking at the end of that second paragraph, which I notice you neglected to include this time, shows how much you truly care for the lost.)

You do of course routinely ignore where your opponents agree with you, except when you think it’s to your advantage to acknowledge their agreement, so I can’t say I’m surprised you think my quoting of those two paragraphs and commenting on them with large agreement amounts to “completely ignoring” those paragraphs.

Meanwhile, you continue to completely ignore the salient points of why I referenced 1 Peter at all.

You cant agree with what I wrote above and say 1 Peter 3:18 will happen again. If you do then you don’t understand what
I wrote. :wink:

You can’t claim I agreed with the one place I said I disagreed, which is naturally the point where we’re at odds.