Too bad they don’t have a clapping smilie 
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[size=150]I use this one:[/size]
All this disappointment, dissolution and despair is but the natural consequence of a fully botched and bereft eschatology so much of futurist Christendom has been saddled with… it’s a fully down-in-the-mouth “the glass is half empty” eschatology. 
I understand that Preterism was a post-Reformation Papal invention. The Reformation clearly made the Church of Rome a prime contender for the Spirit of Anti-Christ. Rome felt it had to respond in some way and the Jesuit Luis del Alcazar invented Preterism. After all, if anti-Christ and all else was dealt with by 70CE then the Church of Rome was in the clear.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_del_Alc%C3%A1zar
For me, I must say, Preterism is the most pessimistic of all the views. I look at the world, I listen to the news and think that if this world is under the rule and reign of Jesus already then we surely are in deep trouble.
It also (in my view) portrays a God who reneges on his promises to Israel which, to me, is very pessimistic.
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Thank you for all the replies. 
I’m having a big crisis of faith at the minute. I’m doubting the Bible God, not that there is a God. I don’t know how to get past the fact that the Bible claims that God (Jesus’ Father) ordered His people to kill by the sword, men women children and suckling babes. When humans do this in any other culture or country, we all cry out how evil it is e.g Isis beheading people (found that recently in the Bible) and yet I’m to accept that God is love but can kill babies in this way. How can I get past this, other than to admit the Bible contains falsehood, which would then undermine the whole thing…(then we’ve got Jesus who isn’t so gentle once you read his statements). The only thing I can think of that would make this bearable would be to have an assurance of UR, but I haven’t got that, so I’m floundering… 
I’m having a big crisis of faith at the minute. I’m doubting the Bible God, not that there is a God. I don’t know how to get past the fact that the Bible claims that God (Jesus’ Father) ordered His people to kill by the sword, men women children and suckling babes. When humans do this in any other culture or country, we all cry out how evil it is e.g Isis beheading people (found that recently in the Bible) and yet I’m to accept that God is love but can kill babies in this way. How can I get past this, other than to admit the Bible contains falsehood, which would then undermine the whole thing…(then we’ve got Jesus who isn’t so gentle once you read his statements). The only thing I can think of that would make this bearable would be to have an assurance of UR, but I haven’t got that, so I’m floundering…
I also agree that if you go down the path that Moses misunderstood then you must believe Jesus misunderstood because he gave Moses full endorsement.
I’m not completely sold on UR but i am sold on post-mortem judgment and salvation. To me the greek words for judgment clearly allow for reconciliation and that is the pathway to justice. Post - mortem salvation does allow for the possibility of UR and that’s all i hope for.
There are some possibilities for this OT violence. I once read a book called “Don’t blame God” and it made a good case that Satan actually caused the killings but the bible writers used a writing style that made it appear God was responsible by using a literary device. (metonyms)
Another possibility might be that maybe the infants were better off being killed then being left without parents.
We will never get all the answers we hope for here but ultimately i believe part of the reason Jesus came here was to reveal God to us and IMHO it’s a gift to us.
When Jesus comes to Earth for many it will be horrible. They will suffer horribly and this of all things is a terrible tragedy. I want be with my Lord but as for the others, even if I make it to the second earth I will perhaps carry sorrow due to their death forever. But anyways Jesus’’ coming may be unknown to all but the Father but if you think of it this way you might become less anxious about it.
There are various views on the second coming and not all are so pessimistic depending on how symbolic you take these second coming verses.
Catherine,
A lot of our trouble (and mine) seems to me to have come from this doctrine of the literal interpretation and infallibility of the bible (as though it were the third member of the trinity and not the Word made flesh). As someone who has struggled mightily with the same issues you’re dealing with now, and almost lost the fight, let me offer you a couple of things you might find relevant and helpful. I did.
I highly recommend this book. It makes and made a lot of sense to me. The picture is the link. 
Love, Cindy
Catherine, I totally empathize with you in your crisis of faith. I had to deal with the problem that God is LOVE and that the Old Testament continues to declare that He kill people, orders the slaying of nations including children. Here is a clear example of his supposedly killing Ezekiel’s wife:
The word of the LORD came to me: “Son of man, behold, I am about to take the delight of your eyes away from you at a stroke; yet you shall not mourn or weep, nor shall your tears run down. Sigh, but not aloud; make no mourning for the dead. Bind on your turban, and put your shoes on your feet; do not cover your lips, nor eat the bread of men.” So I spoke to the people in the morning, and at evening my wife died. And on the next morning I did as I was commanded. (Ezekiel 24:15-17 ESV)
I have taken the position that God DOES NOT kill people. Jesus came to reveal God as He truly is! Jesus Himself is Another One exactly like his Father—the exact imprint of the Father’s essence (Heb 1:3). It is for this reason that Jesus said to Philip, “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father.” Since Jesus is exactly like his Father in every way, He would surely have behaved like his Father while here on earth. Did Jesus ever kill anyone? Did He ever order his disciples to kill anyone? Indeed, He depicted the character of his Father quite differently from the way God is depicted in the Old Testament. Jesus affirmed that the Most High God is kind even to evil people.
- … love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. (Luke 6:35 ESV)*
In Jesus’ reference to the Mosaic law, He does not even say that God had given these commands. Rather He said, “You have heard that it was said…”
Then He sometimes gave instruction exactly opposite, For example the Mosaic law allowed for vengeance, but Jesus instructed his disciples not to resist evil people.
“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. (Matthew 5:38-41 ESV)
My belief is that Moses and sometimes other prophets as well, misunderstood the revelation of God. Sometimes they attributed their own ideas or thought to God. The very matter of God supposedly telling Ezekiel that He would kill his wife, came up in the Theos forum. I expressed my beliefs in that thread just as I have done now, and I got raked over the coals for it, for “not believing the Bible.” Here is a link to that discussion which you may find informative:
Paidion, I have suspected for a long time that some of these things attributed to God in the Old Testament could well be projections by the prophets. You make a convincing case here.
I expressed my beliefs in that thread just as I have done now, and I got raked over the coals for it, for “not believing the Bible.” Here is a link to that discussion which you may find informative:
theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4152
Paidion,
Interesting to look back at that interesting thread! Can’t believe it started in 2012? What about Ananias and Sapphira? Does it not appear God killed them? What about the parable of the Wedding Feast, did God kill or not? What about the destruction of Jerusalem? What about Revelation, do you see any violence in it?
What about the flood? What about the fact we see violence all around us but God does not generally intervene? The freewill answer doesn’t quite wash because victims freewills are violated all the time, why just allow the freewill of the aggressor?
- Yep, God took them - we know the reason. No talk of ect there of course.
- It was a parable.
- I believe it was the Romans that sacked Jerusalem.
- Revelation - a vision.
We KNOW that God shows goodness AND severity. He has shown both to every one of us. His severity is stunning, but not wanton. Purposeful, not capricious. With a view of restoration and blessing, not everlasting torment. These things make a difference. They make a framework for how to approach the question of widespread evil etc. Not the answer, but a framework. That is all we are gonna get.
All been said before, of course. 
I think these are fair-minded questions not unreasonable for anyone to ask. As I understand it the severity of God in the OT appears particularly harsh “on occasion” but invariably related to the people of God in terms of either protection or chastisement and so NOT just wanton acts of gratuitous violence, though on the face of it at times indeed violent. The only way I can rationalise this for myself is to understand that for those who died accordingly under that biblical narrative, for them like us all of us THIS LIFE was not “the end” of their existence.
I can only then assume that the progress of the people of God was paramount in terms of the ultimate reconciliatory plan of God on behalf of all and thus any threat to this was swift… in or outside the covenant community. WHY God did it this way I have no idea, I just accept that He did. I could of course be wrong.
It doesn’t appear that way to me. Of course, one can interpret it that way if one is used to blaming God for death and disaster. I’ve heard people in our day blaming God for sending earthquakes and tsunamis to punish people for their wrong doing. If that were so, why would God punish those particular people and not others who were just as bad or worse? Job’s three friends thought God was punishing him for wrongdoing. But they were mistaken.
Some say that God was punishing the Jews by bringing the holocaust upon them. What a cruel blow that is, to most Jewish people!
I think Ananias and Sapphira may have died from fear at the words of Peter. They realized that Peter must have known by revelation that they had kept back part of the proceeds of their land sale.
In the parable, the king killed the murderers of the servants the king sent. This doesn’t imply that God is going to kill. Not every detail of a parable corresponds to the reality it typifies.
It was the Romans who destroyed Jerusalem and caused starvation to those who had not fled. Through Jesus, the destruction of Jerusalem was predicted. Why do you think that God did it?
Certainly I see violence in it. The whole thing is a vision which the writer John saw. What the vision means is a matter of much debate.
The flood story is found in many cultures, and is essentially the same. A man was told by God to make a large boat and save himself and his family together as well as animals. I think it was a worldwide flood and not merely a local one. Clearly Moses who wrote Genesis believed that God had caused the flood. But did He cause it? Or did He merely predict it and instruct Noah to save his family and the animals?
That’s what this discussion is all about—the age-old problem of evil. The fact that God usually does not intervene does not imply that God has restained Himself for a deeper reason. That attempt to explain God’s non-intervention is precisely what turns so many against God. “Why did you do this to me, God? Why was my little girl raped and murdered? If you did this for a deeper purpose, why don’t you tell me what that purpose is? And couldn’t you have brought about it without allowing this to happen to my little girl?”
Those who see matters as I do, would never ask God such questions, for they would know that God had nothing to do with it.
Do you have a better answer that DOES wash? Every other answer of which I am aware makes God out to be a villain, though those who hold those other answers won’t admit it.
No one’s free will is ever violated; it can’t be. Everyone has the ability to choose all the time. There are conditions in which people cannot carry out their choices. Perhaps that’s what you mean. But God is not responsible for those conditions; usually evil people are responsible, although sometimes “normal” people also do evil deeds on a whim.
Who are you addressing here, God, or the violators of the victims?
God allows the freewill of everyone. The violators violate their victims’ freedom of action, but as long as the victims live and are conscious, they have the ability to choose.
Thank you again good people for your replies.
Cindy- I’ve had a look at the reviews for that book. The most helpful critical review seems to sum up my concerns very well, but thank you for suggesting it.
Jesus never undermined or refuted any part of the Mosaic Law and the Tenach. Didn’t he say "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.’’ Matt 5:17.
So… Jesus supports the prophets and the Mosaic Law. Never does He correct anyone’s perceptions about events that occurred in the OT e.g the Flood or Sodom and Gomorrah. So Jesus supports the stories that speak of God destroying masses of people, in order to punish them.
The Bible from start to finish, teaches that God uses violent and painful means to bring about His purposes. He doesn’t just take violent outcomes of people’s choices to work good (like with Joseph and his brothers) but rather He causes the violent outcome ( Sodom and Gomorrah).
The only thing that would make this bearable is to know that no one is lost eternally due to the violent destruction God brings on them. If this is the case, why won’t God permit me to be assured of this, knowing what a ‘deal breaker’ this issue is to me.
I just remembered the verse where Jesus said: ‘‘Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town’’. Matt 10:15 and Matt 11:24.
Jesus is clearly ‘verifying’ the OT story about the destruction/judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah:
''The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here–sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here, because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the LORD against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.”
Gen 19:12,13.
I just remembered the verse where Jesus said: ‘‘Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town’’. Matt 10:15 and Matt 11:24.
Jesus is clearly ‘verifying’ the OT story about the destruction/judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah:
IMHO there is no question that God’s hand is involved in destructive acts particularly in the OT. But can you see a distinction between destruction and torture? Destruction is fast and sometimes so fast that there may be little pain involved. The fact is that in life there is constantly destruction to make room for rebirth and growth. In a destructive forest fire the forest eventually regenerates over time into something even better. That’s a recurring pattern in life, it’s the nature of existence in this age. Remember we are in an age that Paul called “this present evil age” and it will pass away. All these things that trouble you will pass away and there will be a time when there is no more weeping and no more tears.
The question is , what do you choose to focus on?
The bible also says that Sodom and Gomorrah will eventually be ‘saved’. So there is mercy even in this.
So the ‘quick’ slaughter of whole families is not that bad because it was quick? Taking a sword and killing whole families is surely evil, whatever way you look at it. I’m focusing on the fact that God’s ways are meant to be higher than our ways, so why would He order such a thing? And if, as I am, you are forced to come to the conclusion that you cannot accept that God would order such a thing, then you end up having to discard the whole of the Bible, as it is all full of violence. Yes, there is talk of restoration AFTER all the bad people and things are removed. Sodom and her daughters are promised restoration, but how do we know this involves the ones killed off earlier? It could be talking of the land.
I’ve really tried to focus on the positive verses and put those dodgy ones to the back of my mind, but as I’ve been reading the OT for the last few months as part of my daily Bible reading, I’ve had to face these verses. I can’t ignore them any more. I’ve asked God to sort this out. I don’t know how to get past this.
There is something quite interesting in Joshua 6 that gives me cause for hope. That’s the chapter a lot of people struggle with where the Israelites destroy the city of Jericho and everyone in it (bar Rahab the prostitute and her family). I’d never noticed this before but after that happens, Joshua issues this curse in verse 26:
“Cursed before the Lord be the man who rises up and rebuilds this city, Jericho. At the cost of his firstborn shall he lay its foundation, and at the cost of his youngest son shall he set up its gates.”
Primarily that’s a prophecy about a story that is reported in 1 Kings where a Jew named Hiel rebuilds Jericho at the loss of his eldest and youngest sons.
What I couldn’t help but notice was how this curse and this prophecy fulfilled in 1 Kings translates to what Jesus does for us. Humankind, like Jericho, was made by God and then turned away from Him by sinning. Just like God issued the destruction of Jericho, God put/allowed a curse over the world (a curse that, as far as I’m concerned, is the most merciful thing He could have done - remember there is no opposition between justice and mercy. God is ALWAYS merciful, not sometimes merciful and sometimes not). Instead of leaving humanity under this curse, God sent a Saviour to take on the curse, to become a curse in order to rebuild humanity. At the cost of His firstborn Son, He laid the foundation to rebuild sinful humanity.
Hiel, like Jesus, was a Jew. So the curse Joshua pronounced after the destruction of Jericho was not one that affected an enemy - it was one that affected one of God’s own. Hiel rebuilt the city of Jericho at a great cost. But the great cost was worth it. We read further on that Jericho became a place of God’s people again, even helping Nehemiah to rebuild Jerusalem.
So even in a story of God’s destruction, we have prophecies of Him rebuilding, even allusions to God paying the same cost we have done. It’s the same in stories like where God is said to have wiped out the firstborn of every family in Egypt in order to free the Israelites. The slaying of the firstborn leads to the freeing of the Israelites from slavery, through whom Jesus, God incarnate, comes and suffers the same cost in order to free everyone from the slavery of sin and death.
Hope that helps a little bit