The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Why is there so much confusion about Jesus' return?

Theology Eschatology
#1

I always feel like I do a bad job of being ‘‘prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have…’’

My husband is an atheist. Every now and then he’ll ask me about where Jesus is. He’ll point out that He’s been gone for two thousand years and left us to it. I always feel uncomfortable at this. I explain, that yes, it’s been a long time, but Jesus is waiting until it’s time for Him to step into Earth’s affairs, most likely when we’re about to blow up the planet, and He’ll then establish HIs rule, and we’ll do things His way. He’ll sort everything out once and for all. He’s letting the dominoes fall as they will, and a good job too, that He is taking so long, otherwise we wouldn’t have been born.

That makes sense to me but my husband shakes his head and thinks I’m making excuses. I can’t help worrying though, that Jesus is taking such a long time. When I read the Bible, the chronologies in Daniel clearly indicate a 1st century fulfilment of God’s plan for establishing His rule by removing man’s rule. The words of Jesus about the generation alive as he spoke, seeing the fulfilment of His words and His ‘second’ coming, as well as the ‘imminence’ verses of the apostles in the epistles, all point to the culmination of things in the first century. Jesus went away in 30 -33 AD for a long time of nearly 40 years, and ‘came back’ in 70 AD to execute judgment on Israel. Why did He not set up His kingdom then?

Something is very wrong. Apostasy had already crept in prior to 70 AD, and so the following centuries saw less of Jesus’ rule e.g. Christianity becoming paganised/married to the state; crusades, etc. We no longer see the signs and miracles like what marked the first church. I’ve never been to a church where they operate in the gifts of the Holy Spirit like what we read in the NT. I hear ‘tongues’ that I must admit I am sceptical about.

Why has Jesus left us to it for 2000 years? I suppose a lot of the time it does feel like Jesus isn’t really ‘around’. He said He wouldn’t leave us as orphans but it does feel like that for me a lot of the time. :frowning:

#2

Here’s one way to think about it: God took many thousands (millions?) of years to prepare mankind for the Messiah; perhaps the full effect of that first coming will take 10,000 years or lots longer to come into full fruitfulness. God has ‘slow skill’ to bring things about.

#3

DaveB- good point, however 2000 years seems a VERY long time compared to how God has done things before. He has always ‘shown up’ every so many hundreds of years, via prophets, Kings etc. Last of all He ‘showed up’ in His Son, who now has gone away- for a long time, whilst the lunatics are running the asylum. His ‘representatives’ are having a free for all, as regards doctrine and how they understand the Bible. It seems like everyone goes with how their brains understand the Bible. If it was the Holy Spirit, surely there’d be more unity in what we believe. This world seems void of Jesus. I’m meant to have the Holy Spirit living in me. I’m meant to be living in the Kingdom: having a spiritual comprehension of things, and yet I struggle big time.

#4

Very quick comment, might write a longer one later.

It can be really frustrating sometimes. There are many days that I get annoyed at Jesus and His seeming lack of action and visibility. I’ve screamed at Him before, pleaded for Him to speak, give signs, be a bit more visible and obvious to my mind. More often than not I’m met with silence.

Very often we can feel like we’ve been abandoned, like we’re just wanting God to suddenly just appear and change things around. In a slightly different way, we can feel like the Jews who were wanting God to send a Messiah to destroy their enemies and establish an earthly kingdom with Israel. Not surprisingly they were a little disappointed when they were met with a Man who seemed to do the complete opposite of all those things they were hoping for, who went round meeting the lowly and the outcast, hanging around with sinners and healing lepers.

I think God is very slowly teaching me that He knows best and that often the best happens over time, where the meaning and intention doesn’t seem immediately obvious, where things seem like they’re going nowhere, even occasionally out of control. We mustn’t forget that a thousand years is a day to the Lord and He is very patient in getting His plans done. If it’s taken thousands and millions of years to get to this point, then it may take a little longer for God to achieve precisely what He wants to set in place for eternity.

#5

I struggle big time too, and I’m sure we’re not alone. :smiley:

In a real way, Jesus is all around us - wherever there is another human being in need - in prison, naked, hungry - and giving help to them in some way is the same as doing it for Jesus. Even a drink of cold water to a thirsty person. So he is in the world and not absent, in that real sense.

Perhaps, the most ‘spiritual’ thing we can do is to be open and loving, the way God is open and loving with us, and not to be ‘lifted up’ above worldly things by a constant inner witness? Martin Buber wrote extensively to the point that real humanity takes place only in the ‘between’ person and person. That between-ness takes two, no person being an island unto themselves. I think it was CSL that said something like: the closest I will get to experiencing God today is loving my neighbor. [tag]JasonPratt[/tag] would know if it was CSL.

I have no satisfying answer to why the amount and kind of suffering in the world is ‘permitted’. I do know that this is the world we are given, and I know some of what our duty and task is; and I know we are permitted to ask for help and wisdom in healing ourselves and those we are responsible for. The big questions are, I think, insoluble. See my new slogan below. :smiley:

#6

Each one of us is an outpost of the kingdom of God, a lamp upon the Lampstand. Remember the parable of the leaven hid in 3 bushels of meal until all was leavened?(Luke 13:21)

IMO there are 3 major ages, from Adam to Noah, from Noah to Messiah, from Messiah to Millenia -each involving thousands of years. At the end of this present 3rd age the glory of the Lord will cover the earth as the water covers the sea, in a golden age lasting 1000 years.

1656 years from Adam to the flood (answersingenesis.org/bible-time … the-flood/)

Aprox 2350 years from years from the flood to thee advent of Messiah (compellingtruth.org/Old-Test … eline.html)

And there are now 2015 years in this age- unique in that Jesus Christ is here among us by the Spirit of Christ within us. We are preparing the world for His second advent. Their is more light in the world than we know, and the tears of the oppressed are hidden by the excesses of this media generation and the atrocities and propaganda of governments and corporations(kingdoms of men).

But the whole creation is in agony as of child-birth(Romans 8:22)- for the removal of the veil(Isaiah 25:7)- the breaking of the water and coming forth of His kingdom out of the spirit realm into the world at large as in “the kingdoms of this world have now become the kingdoms of our God and His Christ”(Rev 11:15).

Your husband sees Jesus in you, more than he can admit, just let Him shine all the more through you.

Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, **“It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses **both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

#7

Even the disciples were confused about this return. I think folks should quite trying to match events happening in the world to prophesies in the Bible (i.e. something you see a lot these days). Just try to do what his asks and live the life he wants us to lead - in the meantime.

In the meantime, I’ll leave you with this joke:

A burglar broke into a house one night. He shined his flashlight around, looking for valuables, and when he picked up a CD player to place in his pack, a strange, disembodied voice echoed from the dark saying,

"

He nearly jumped out of his skin, clicked his flashlight out, and froze. When he heard nothing more after a bit, he shook his head, promised himself a vacation after the next big score, then clicked the light on and began searching for more valuables. Just as he pulled the stereo out so he could disconnect the wires, clear as a bell he heard,

Freaked out, he shone his light around frantically, looking for the source of the voice. Finally, in the corner of the room, his flashlight beam came to rest on a parrot.

", he hissed at the parrot.

the parrot confessed, then squawked,

The burglar relaxed.

replied the bird.

the burglar laughed.

#8

I found the quote from CSL:
“Next to the Blessed Sacrament itself, your neighbor is the holiest object presented to your senses.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory

and

“I have received no assurance that anything we can do will eradicate suffering. I think the best results are obtained by people who work quietly away at limited objectives, such as the abolition of the slave trade, or prison reform, or factory acts, or tuberculosis, not by those who think they can achieve universal justice, or health, or peace. I think the art of life consists in tackling each immediate evil as well as we can.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory

#9

A few more thoughts.

But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (2 Cor 4:3-6)

God has unveiled our minds, if we see Him and His purposes in Jesus Christ crucified as a pathway of the willing joyful service of love- as He did, “for the joy set before Him.”

But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.(2 Cor 4:7-10)

Jesus did the work on the cross(it is finished) and we are carrying on the work and that work IS permeating the world, for “it is God that is in you to will and to work His of good pleasure”, and we were created in Christ to do good works “prepared from the foundation of the world”.

It sounds grand and glorious- and it is, but it works out in the daily lives of people who love Jesus everyday in their imperfection learning thru experience to be like Him as lamps in their little world, as cells lighting up within a dead body(creation).

Jesus was here as a suffering servant. It was by overcoming in that humble service that he received the name above every name(Phil 2:6-11). He suffered for us, but if we are disciples, we must experience some aspect of that role- or we are not really disciples. As disciples we are being prepared to share His priesthood in the ages to come(Eph 2:7, Rom 8:21-23).

I see an outline of God’s wisdom concerning our sufferings, the sufferings of the world, and the purpose of chaos and time contained in these verses

Ro. 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.(suffering shapes us, as it did our Master who “learned obedience through the things that he suffered” Heb 5:8)

19 For the earnest expectation of the creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God.(There is a hidden yearning in all people to be set free from futility, this yearning is provoked by chaos, and in a sense, the earth is still “without form and void”)

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,(God is teaching the entire creation, even as He has taught each of us, through chaos and suffering and bondage to self, what a glorious freedom love is, so that when we are ALL birthed into it, and He is ALL IN ALL, there will be “joy unspeakable and full of glory” )

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.(Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.)

22 For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.(Giving birth is a painful, messy, experience- but in the end it yields- “the peaceable fruit of righteousness”. God creates by speaking light into chaos, and form arises out of the speaking germinating within it and coming forth…each age the womb of the one to follow, the whole creation having been the womb of the “age of ages…the world to come…the new creation in Christ…God being all in all”.)

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.(On this page we have all expressed that groaning :slight_smile:

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man sees, why doth he yet hope for? (Hope shapes us in patience, “For by faith we know that God spoke the worlds into existence, so that the things that are unseen are greater than the visible things”)

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. (This is the patience of the saints(Rev 13:10, 14:12) by which they overcome- no longer lost in chaos- but found in the hope of the kingdom of God- becoming like Jesus- from the heart regarding their oppressors and praying “Father forgive them, they dont know what they do” )

Even our temptations shape us

James 1:2
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;

3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith works patience.

4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

But God is faithful. He has begun a good work (in each, in every, in all, in the whole creation) and He will finish it (Alpha through Omega)

For from him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. Rom 8:36

#10

This is IMO the inevitable consequence of the theology of eschatological postponement… Hope deferred makes the heart sick, but when the desire comes, it is a tree of life. Prov 13:12

Again, IMO you are right “Something is very wrong.”

What IF the nature of the kingdom you’ve been expecting is in fact something other than what you’ve conceived it to be? The Jews of Jesus’ day were looking for/to an earthly messiah to rout Rome… Jesus of course was having none of their crass expectations (Jn 6:15; 18:36); and in lockstep even the disciples carried such a carnal hope before Jesus redirected their fleshly focus to that more of the Spirit (Acts 1:6, 8). IOW… when Jesus said… “My kingdom is not of this world” he was NOT referring to some distant in time earthly utopian paradise.

The problem as I see it is this: Christendom has misrepresented God… it has made God to be some magical mystical Santa Clause, who when finally appeased by seeing less “naughty” and more “nice” will at the last magnanimously hey presto appear intervening so this world doesn’t go the hell in a hand basket.

God has not postponed what He promised… that we have been taught to look for something other than the fullness of reconciliation has left its dark mark across our world… little wonder so many have rejected the caricature of God so often presented “in the name of Christ” – I too reject this. God did not wind up the key and then just walk away, no; He gave the key to humanity in the person of Jesus, whom IF we followed his lead via “love thy neighbour” this world could be all we’ve ever hoped for. And this is true because “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself” i.e., it’s been done already, OR as Jesus said it “it is finished!”

#11

Something is very wrong. Apostasy had already crept in prior to 70 AD, and so the following centuries saw less of Jesus’ rule e.g. Christianity becoming paganised/married to the state; crusades, etc. We no longer see the signs and miracles like what marked the first church. I’ve never been to a church where they operate in the gifts of the Holy Spirit like what we read in the NT. I hear ‘tongues’ that I must admit I am sceptical about.

I guess it depends on your eschatological view. As a Historicist it seems to me things are flowing along right on schedule. As Jesus said no one knows the day or hour of his return except Father God therefore concerning ourselves about it is akin to ignoring what Jesus said about it. Also Paul said in the last days folks would be lovers of pleasure and practice a form of godliness but without it’s power. It seems everyone is concerned about things related to the earth like enviormentalism and climate change which in itself is not bad except many have made it their god just as Paul said.
Lastly miracles do happen but not necessarily when we are looking for them.

#12

Steve… that’s a rather telling statement given Jesus’ “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

#13

Hi Catherine,

It’s not the logic of arguments or the listing of facts that lead people to have faith in God, but it is like like lights coming on. I was blind, but now I see. I was dead but now I’m alive. I didn’t know there was a real kingdom of God, now I’m a citzen in it. When giving a reason for the hope in me, I’ll usually share how I came to have faith in God.

Concerning believing in Jesus, “IF” a person is seriously inquiring concerning my faith and they want to seriously study it out, I’ll occasionally encourage them to read something like “Case for Faith” and/or “Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. Both are very good. I find though that most people who are asking questions like you mentioned are only doing so because they are not really open to believing but are irritated by your faith. In such cases I’ve found it’s best to just pray for them and love the hell out of em. And I’m reminded of Paul encouraging believing spouses to win over unbelieving spouses by their gentle and quiet lives.

Blessings,
Sherman

#14

To point out the obvious - we are not in the first century. :smiley: God is just as able to work miracles - and does when it fits His purposes - but the strange thing is, and we see it in the history of early Israel - miracles do not often convince people who are hell-bent (that was too easy :smiley: ) on not believing. The closer God got to the early Israelites, the more they rebelled. The Pharisees and others in the first century hardened themselves even with seeing the miracles. The crowds rejoiced in the miracles as long as they were being fed. When I was studying Philosophy, I knew many of my fellow students and Profs that would explain away anything miraculous. Even the evidence of their own eyes.
I wonder if any miracle could actually generate a saving faith. No doubt the miracle would have an impact, either hardening one’s unbelief or encouraging a fledgeling willingness to believe, but the vast majority of people that DO believe have never witnessed an objective ‘mighty work’. God works in other ways.

The confusion over Jesus’ return has many roots. One is the misguided interpretation of prophecy, which was not pointing to the end of the space-time continuum at all - that was not the import of Jesus’ prophecy. When he talked about the Kingdom of God, it generated excitement in the Jewish community - except in those that had listened to earlier "messiahs’ and been disappointed when political revolution did not happen, ushering in the end of the exile and the re-establishment of God as King of the earth in Jerusalem.

Neither did Jesus go off on a new path, abandoning the Jewish hope. He did subvert the story, and his parables were effective in doing that, showing the true nature of the Kingdom - not a spiritual experience outside of history, or ‘sapiential’ teachings.The purpose of God for Israel was to redeem the entire earth from Adam’s sin, and Israel was to be his tool in doing that. But with the Jew’s failure, God sent his Son to accomplish what Israel would/could not do, and establish the Church as the new Israel.

Going far afield here, sorry. :smiley:

#15

Steve… that’s a rather telling statement given Jesus’ “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”

Davo,
“Coming in His kingdom” is an OT expression for destruction, in this case Jerusalem. I don’t take that for His second coming. It also could refer to his ascension tying in to Dan 7.13 IMHO.

#16

I’m thinking your “far afield here” is bang on the money. :smiley:

Indeed yes… the “coming end” was the end of THEIR Mosaic world/age.

Again yes, reflected most clearly here… But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’” Lk 16:31

#17

Had the same problem with my parents and few religious people. The main confusion about anything theological is not knowing God better. There is confusion since Jesus’ return is more spiritual than physical. The Kingdom is now but the fullness of it comes when He comes back. Of course, it is impossible to explain anything spiritual to anyone who is not spiritual. That’s what experience tells me. You can simply stand on the more obvious Truths of the faith confirmed by your own testimony and from things you do understand and see that works (good church environment reflecting fruits of spirit, etc.)

#18

Steve, you are right about what the “OT expression” meant… and yet the previous verse to the one mentioned (Mt 16:28) makes it crystal clear (IMO) that said destruction was but one aspect associated directly with Christ’s Parousia, as per… “For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.” Mt 16:27

Speaking of “his ascension”… I’m inclined to see Daniel’s text as pertinent to Acts 1:9; the gist of which being further captured here: Therefore He said: “A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return. Lk 19:12

Interestingly also is something not always captured or appreciated in Jesus’ like parables… the one in authority who GOES and later RETURNS without fail returns to the self-same people he left, that is, the one’s directly being addressed; thus Jesus’ “this generation”.

#19

I want him to come also. Sad thing is when he does there will be a great slaughter, and by great I mean high magnitude. Just typing it I feel like I’m going to cry. When you fathom eternity and relate it to humanity and eternal fire the sorrow is a lot. I love God, and I also love Jesus. I want to be with them in a world that is right where men can worship God Almighty without being persecuted. Where we will love each other and prosper. But I don’t think it is right to covet the Day of the Lord.

Will not the day of the LORD be darkness instead of light, Even gloom with no brightness in it? - Amos 5:20
Woe to you who long for the day of the LORD! Why do you long for the day of the LORD? That day will be darkness, not light. - Amos 5:18

When Jesus comes to Earth for many it will be horrible. They will suffer horribly and this of all things is a terrible tragedy. I want be with my Lord but as for the others, even if I make it to the second earth I will perhaps carry sorrow due to their death forever. But anyways Jesus’’ coming may be unknown to all but the Father but if you think of it this way you might become less anxious about it.

#20

The author of second Peter wrote:

Knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days …They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.” (2 Peter 3:3,4)

I can understand how your husband feels, Catherine. I can also understand why you sometimes feel a bit that way yourself.
So many people have expected Jesus to come in the past, and either calculated the date of his return by some scriptural procedure, or else thought the date was revealed to them. In one case large groups of people sold or gave away their possessions and waited on a mountain for his return. When it didn’t happen, most of that group fell away in disappointment. The JWs expected him in 1914. When he didn’t return, they explained that he DID return, not bodily as expected, but in spirit.

I remember when I was 19, and waiting in line for a theater to open. I was shocked to hear someone in the line say, “They’re as slow as the second coming of Christ!” That statement seemed to be a terrible blasphemy to me!

But whether He comes in our time or not; He WILL come in God’s time. And He will restore the earth as it was meant to be. Hallelujah!