We deserve hell because of what we did to Christ. There is no greater sin than to hate and kill the Son of God. Even if we take away the pain I think we can see that killing Him is the most heinous sin. For Killing an ant (painlessly) doesn’t merit as severe punishment than if I killed (painlessly) a cat and killing a cat (painlessly) doesn’t merit as severe punishment as killing (painlessly) a human and killing a human (painlessly) doesn’t merit as severe punishment as killing (painlessly) Jesus Christ. This was the worse evil humankind has ever done. It is a sin of infinite gravity because it belittles the infinite glory of Christ. Although hell is eternal there are different intensities of hell. Not everyone has the same severity of torment. When we sin we reject Christ. This is so because when Christ came down He entered into a mystical union with humankind. It’s not because of Adam that we reject Christ. Sin is our own responsibility. It’s our fault. Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. God acts transtemporally. The effects of the cross stretch forwards and backwards in time.
Less than 12 hours ago you wrote much the same thing over in the “Philosophical” category, except there you quoted Rom 5 with a typically universalistic meaning that God would use this to bring about everlasting joy and righteousness for the world. The Worst Evil Is Meant By God For Good
Jason,
World doesn’t always mean every single individual.
What do we suppose Jesus meant when He asked his Father - forgive them, for they know not what they do?
Was his prayer answered?
It depends on who Jesus was praying for.
I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. John 17:9-10
It was not His disciples that killed Him; so He was praying for God to forgive those who were not His disciples. The cross revealed the love and forgiveness of God; it did not enable God to love us but was an expression of His love for us. God so loved…
And btw, there is no “Hell” - a place of endless conscious torment. If there was it seems to me that God would have at least warned Adam of such, and surely Moses would have warned the children of God of such and likely used it as a pronouncement against the Egyptians. Surely, if there was a Hell the prophets would have warned of such. And surely if there was a Hell, Jesus would have warned clearly and repeatedly of such instead of just warning of being cast into Hinnom Valley. And surely Paul would have at least once warned of such a place, Tartarus, but he doesn’t, not even once!
Scripture affirmst that the wages of sin is “death”, not “endless conscious torment” of any degree! Thanks be to God though that Jesus is the savior of all, especially (not only) we who now believe! God sent Jesus to reconcile all of creation to Himself - everything in heaven, on earth, and even under the earth - that about covers “everything”, I think!
“33 And when they came to the place that is called The Skull, there they crucified him, and the criminals, one on his right and one on his left. 34 And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.”** And they cast lots to divide his garments. 35 And the people stood by, watching, but the rulers scoffed at him.”
Did the Father answer this prayer? I think so. Did they (soldiers, crowd) really KNOW what they were doing? I don’t think so.
(I’m sounding all 'Fundie" here, I guess 
)
“The cross revealed the love and forgiveness of God; it did not enable God to love us but was an expression of His love for us.” -Sherman
Right on.**
There’s no way of knowing this.
Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. God acts transtemporally. The effects of the cross stretch forwards and backwards in time. Jesus was a self sacrifice offering of love. He wasn’t appeasing an angry God but His entire life was a fragrant offering of selfless servant love. He was revealing God’s heart of compassion for us. The entire life of Christ was a sacrifice as He took on the life of a servant. Likewise we are called to bring our lives as a living sacrifice by living a life of selfless other directed love. Jesus came to reveal God’s heart of love and compassion to the broken and rejected. He would gain victory over sin, death, and Satan. We let God’s love come into our lives as we enter into a personal relationship with Him. The cross declares that our own self-hatred and the whole cycle of being hurt and hurting others is broken, freeing us from the bondages of sin and death. At the cross Christ suffers with those who suffer revealing the compassionate love of God. Love stood up to death and overcame it. He took on all our sin and hatefulness, died, and was risen as death was overcome and love was risen as victor. We are united to Christ as He takes on our sin and suffers with us and for us becoming a curse as He dies and is raised again defeating sin and death.
In what sense did “we” kill Christ? By “we” do you mean humanity in general? Or do you mean each of us individually? I have no recollection of having killed him (and I don’t mean this sarcastically).
Also the word “deserve” is an odd word. It usually implies that one has done something against some sort of standard, and therefore ought suffer because of it. But that is the big question. Ought an evil doer suffer just in order that vengeance might be taken upon him? Is there no purpose other than to make him suffer? Is that what one calls “justice”? The real meaning of “justice” is “fairness.”
The only purpose of punishment ought to be remedial. I believe that ALL of God’s judgments are remedial. God punishes for one reason—to correct the character of the offender. This is being increasingly common in “justice systems” as well. It is called “restorative justice”.
Please take another look at my signature statement.
When we sin we reject Christ. This is so because when Christ came down He entered into a mystical union with humankind. It’s not because of Adam that we reject Christ. Sin is our own responsibility. It’s our fault. Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. God acts transtemporally. The effects of the cross stretch forwards and backwards in time.
How do you understand this sentence? (oops. When I wrote this, you hadn’t yet entered the post above). Clearly Christ wasn’t literally slain before the foundation of the world.
I take it to mean that God knew that it was entirely possible or even probable that His Son would be murdered by hateful persons. But God devised a way of bringing a GREAT GOOD out of that evil act—the salvation and restoration of mankind!
The Bible doesn’t say this. It says He was slain before the foundation of the world. God acts transtemporally. The effects of the cross stretch forwards and backwards in time. When we sin we reject Christ. This is also so because when Christ came down He entered into a mystical union with humankind.
Are you suggesting that God slew His Son before the foundation of the earth?
Do the effects of other evil acts stretch forwards and backwards in time? If so, what exactly does that mean? What are the practical results? Did a murder, a rape, a torture committed in 2013 somehow take place before the foundation of the world? Or would you say that it did in the sense that God knew it was going to happen?
Paidion,
We’re talking about the cross. What does the Bible say? Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. Nowhere does the Bible say God knew ahead of time about the possibility of the murder of Jesus.
True, but in Rom 5 Paul is talking about every single individual, or his comparative logic would be broken. So when you cite Romans 5 in reference to God bringing about everlasting righteousness for the world, your usage of “world” must match the scope of Paul’s argument there (even though he doesn’t happen to use one of the terms translated “world” there).
This is aside from the question of whether killing the Son of God is a sin of specially infinite gravity compared to other sins (because it belittles the infinite glory of Christ or otherwise). If any sin involves rejecting God (and thus rejecting Christ) then every sin, no matter how light it looks, brings the same condemnation – which I agree with, but then there’s no point trying to compare different penalties.
I disagree that sin only affects our relationship with God thanks to the mystical union with humankind through Christ: God has a mystical union with humankind regardless of the incarnation. Paul certainly doesn’t present the mystical union as the reason of our condemnation, he presents the mystical union as the reason for expecting the scope and certainty of salvation from sin.
While sin does belittle the infinite glory of God (and thus of Christ), that isn’t really the key problem. The problem is that when we sin we act against the ground of our existence (Who is God). The infinite glory is true, but irrelevant for purposes of comparison, as though if God had less glory we would be less condemned.
On the contrary, the maximum glory of God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) is why we can be sure of salvation from sin, since God saves sinners for the sake of His glory. God won’t be content with sinners continuing to rebel against Him, nor be content with annihilating rebels. His glory goes out, and must return.
(This is related to Paul’s assurance near the end of Rom 5, that where sin exceeds God’s grace hyperexceeds.)
Jason,
All sin is a rejection of Christ. The mystical union connects Christ to humanity. He took on all our sin and hatefulness, died, and was risen as death was overcome and love was risen as victor. We are united to Christ as He takes on our sin and suffers with us and for us becoming a curse as He dies and is raised again defeating sin and death. We caused the sufferings of Christ. Let me think about Romans 5.
I don’t know what you mean by this, and I wonder if you know what you mean too… Without a clarification it is a meaningless statement. Could you please clarify:
1/ What is hell?
2/ In what way is hell eternal?
3/ In what way are there different intensities of hell?
Again, what is torment? And what is severity? When my dog died… not everyone had “the same severity of torment.” When I failed as a son, not everyone had “the same severity of torment.” Unless you know exactly what the torment is, how can anyone compare the severity? This seems to me a problem in the language used in the scriptures. I agree that it is suitable to use the same terms as the bible uses, but that does not mean that we understand it. Virtually everything Jesus said was encrypted in a parable.
Steve
Jason,
I’ll agree with you on Romans 5. Christ suffered and died for all. The mystical union is with all. We are buried with Christ as we are resurrected to new life. The mystical union connects Christ to humanity. He took on all our sin and hatefulness, died, and was risen as death was overcome and love was risen as victor. We are all united to Christ as He takes on our sin and suffers with us and for us becoming a curse as He dies and is raised again defeating sin and death. We all make it to heaven even though we all deserve hell for causing the sufferings and death of Christ.