Steve, I meant that perhaps they got some of their ideas FROM the apocrypha. Not that they are called apocrypha.
Sorry 
However, I don’t think their ideas were attained from the apocrypha. Do you have examples where this is the case? I believe they all appeal to the scriptures for their knowledge, along with knowledge that was passed down through the presbyters and apostles…
Steve
I fail to see a difference between the apocrypha and the protestant canon:
lotharlorraine.wordpress.com/?s=inspiration
Hi Son of Lothar,
I read your article, but I didn’t see how it addressed your statement. Would you mind clarifying what you means…
Steve
Nah, Steve – here’s my thought process, more or less . . .
"I wonder where the fathers got this idea? Not from scripture, unless I’ve missed something. I might have, but I can’t imagine what it would be. I’m pretty sure it isn’t there. Maybe it’s in the apocrypha or some other sacred writings I haven’t read? I don’t think it’s in the apocrypha just from what I’ve heard of it, but maybe it is. Could they have gotten their ideas from that? If they didn’t, I’d have to say that they appear to have made up the ideas themselves, or maybe they believe God inspired these ideas in one or or more of their hearts? I don’t give that a lot of weight. I hear from God too, and I’m not on their level, but I KNOW I get things wrong and allow my own imagination to interfere. I wouldn’t give my journals anything like the weight of scripture and I don’t think I’d give the fathers’ journals the weight of scripture either, though certainly more weight than my own.
Of course they might have gotten it word-of-mouth from someone they trusted. Again, I know it was an oral society and they’re trained to remember things, but even if John the apostle said these things, he said them when he was old and had had lots of time to muse things over and maybe get them right or maybe not quite right. Or he said them to Polycarp or someone and then that someone passed it on or wrote it down. But it didn’t make it into the canon. Hmm . . . I also find that speculative transmission of information to produce doubtful results at best. So if they didn’t get it from scripture, eh – I don’t think they knew. Preachers conjecture this kind of stuff all the time. You can’t just eat whatever they give you – you have to check it out from scripture yourself or else it’s dubious. Maybe they’re right, maybe not."
That’s where I’m coming from. I guess I’m saying we can’t know. Scripture seems to teach everyone will be together on the new earth, but of course that’s Revelation and that’s apocryphal. I feel more on steady ground going with Revelation than with anything else, though.
Love, Cindy
Hi Cindy,
We are only here mentioning what the fathers taught. There is no contest here. It is up to each person to make their own inquiries and work out their own salvation (Philippians 2:12). I do believe, though, that their views were based on scripture, even if you do not agree with their interpretation. They interpreted those specific scriptures, “many mansions”, 100fold, 60fold, 30fold, “other sheep”, many crowns, etc, to be directly referring to the variation of blessings and rewards within the christian hope. You are free to agree or disagree with them as you see fit; but you cannot deny the ECF the right to interpret those scriptures as they were taught and as they understood. This is something we all do; except in their case, they have claim to having heard from the apostles directly, or from those who were taught by the apostles.
There are other passages that I have not included from the ECF, as I do not want to force the point. In the end, we are each drawn to an understanding which appeals to our spiritual or fleshly sensibilities. I cannot judge anyone, other than to say that it is a condition that effects us all.
Steve
When comparing the writings of Paul and C.S. Lewis, I fail to see why Paul was more inspired by God, IF I step back from my protestant background and try to take an obective look at this.
And I believe that C.S. Lewis’s books are far more godly than the genocidal texts in the Bible.
Best wishes from Europe!
(Robin)
Is this the correct verse, or am I just not getting as much out of it as you?
Perhaps, I’m now thinking, you mentioned this within the context
of the on-going discussion about the “fathers” (and Paul) …
Alright, see it now, our producing or “working out”
to the salvation of ourselves through inquiries (with fear and trembling)…
Actually, this is an oddly worded verse, me thinks one that could easily be misused;
that is, I dont think it actually says that we produce our own salvation, but rather,
that we are TO the salvation (already present) producing our own ideal actions … or as you say “working it”
Again, I 'm finding this a difficult verse to rightly understand, let alone to apply, here?
“As-besides beloved [ones] of me,
according-as you had always obeyed, no[t] as in the presence of me only,
but now much more in the absence of me,
with a fear and a trembling, to the salvation of yourselves be you producing,” (~Robin)
php 2:12 hOste agapEtoi mou kathOs pantote hupEkousate mE hOs en tE parousia mou monon alla nun pollO mallon en tE apousia mou meta phobou kai tromou tEn heautOn sOtErian katergazesthe
as-besides {5620 CONJ} beloved! [ones] {0027 A-VPM} of me/ my {1473 P-1GS} according-as {2531 ADV} always {3842 ADV} you had obeyed {5219 V-AAI-2P} no[t] {3361 PRT-N} as {5613 ADV} in {1722 PREP} unto the [one] {3588 T-DSF} unto a presence {3952 N-DSF} of me/ my {1473 P-1GS} only {3441 ADV} but {0235 CONJ} now {3568 ADV} unto much a [one] {4183 A-DSN} more {3123 ADV} in {1722 PREP} unto the [one] {3588 T-DSF} unto an absence {0666 N-DSF} of me/ my {1473 P-1GS} with {3326 PREP} of a fear {5401 N-GSM} and {2532 CONJ} of a trembling {5156 N-GSM} to the [one] {3588 T-ASF} of yourselves {1438 F-2GPM} to a salvation {4991 N-ASF} be you producing {2716 V-PNM-2P}
Yes, it is an odd wording, but that is true of so much of the scriptures. I like the pulpit commentary:
Our research and beliefs, apart from the essentials, are working out our own salvation, as it is part of the process of sanctification.
(Robin)
And you mention yet another difficult verse, Eph 6:13 …
“Through to this [matter], to the armament of the God be you taking-up,
so-that you may be empowered to stand-against the wicked [one], in the day,
even to [matters] all-along exercising, to stand.” (~Robin)
… not only hard (for me) to read into the English, but difficult to exactly grasp exactly what is being said;
that is, I’m currently understanding this to be talking about our being empowered … both … in some future
day to stand-against the wicked one, but also to ideally stand, all-along in daily matters of life?
Note: I’m understanding the accusative adjective “hapanta” to read as the hyphenated …“to all-along [things],”
but find it reads better slightly switched around, in the context of the verse …“to [matters] all-along”
Also, I allow for the conjunction “kai” to be read as “and/ also/ even” … and have opted for “even” in this context,
because it seems the verse is talking about both our future need for God’s armament, but “even” more-so,
in this life’s day-to-day (all-along) efforts and actions (matters “exercising”)
I’ve been told that my readings of the Greek are “gobbledygook,” and yet in this, my laymans struggles to do so,
I’ve come to feel closer to God through His word … until I started to do this, these scriptures were really
(to be honest with you) just a lot of strange religious verbiage. It’s still hard for me to grasp, but the
“taking-up” of the effort is golden (for me)
eph 6:13 dia touto analabete tEn panoplian tou theou hina dunEthEte antistEnai en tE hEmera tE ponEra kai hapanta katergasamenoi stEnai
through {1223 PREP} to this [thing] {3778 D-ASN} be you taking-up {0353 V-2AAM-2P} to the [one] {3588 T-ASF} to an armament {3833 N-ASF} of the [One] {3588 T-GSM} of God {2316 N-GSM} so-that {2443 CONJ} you may be empowered {1410 V-AOS-2P} to stand-against {0436 V-2AAN} in {1722 PREP} unto the [one] {3588 T-DSF} unto a day {2250 N-DSF} unto the [one] {3588 T-DSF} unto a wicked [one] {4190 A-DSF} and/ even {2532 CONJ} to all-along [things] {0537 A-APN} exercising {2716 V-ADP-NPM} to stand {2476 V-2AAN}
That’s fine, Stef – I don’t have a problem with them or with you interpreting scriptures the best you understand them. If I sounded prickly or irritated, I didn’t mean to. I didn’t feel irritated and now I’m afraid I’ve offended you with my clumsy use of the language. 
I honestly just wanted to know whether they had some reference material I was missing. It was confusing to me where they were drawing from, so thanks for pointing out those scriptures.
You’re right to say that I would interpret them much differently, but hey, we all have our own experiences and we see things differently. The many mansions always bothered me, as I took it literally when I was a kid and didn’t particularly want to live all alone in some big house. (I’m not supposing that you’re taking it that literally, though – that was just me as a child.) The scholars I’m aware of now tell us that a better interpretation of that would be, “In My Father’s house are many rooms,” which appeals far more to me. Then still others will say that WE are the Father’s house, and each of us a room. Hmm, now that is an interesting way to look at it. Jesus, as quoted in Luke, at least, is very poetic (or else Luke and/or his sources were). It seems like the kind of picture Jesus was in the habit of painting for His followers, and then just waiting for them to catch on. Still others say He was referring to the metaphor of the Groom preparing a suite for His bride in His Father’s house, which I confess, appeals very much to me. But the thread isn’t really about that and I’m getting off track.
And personally (Lotharson), yes – I guess I do see Paul as more inspired than CS Lewis even though I have high regard for Lewis as well. The thing is, I don’t see the EF as necessarily more inspired than CS Lewis – I just don’t. Some of them undoubtedly were and others I suspect were not. At present I simply don’t have the time to study the EF. There are too many other things I’m more eager to do (maybe rightly, maybe wrongly), and I acknowledge that if I were more in the know concerning them that I might revere them more. I just don’t have the motivation though. The bible seems enough to keep me busy and I do and probably always will regard it as the highest source. I haven’t mastered it, so . . . .
Anyway, we’ll all know everything we want to soon enough.
Blessings, Cindy
No worries, Cindy. I didn’t take any offence. I thought maybe it was me who was clumsy with my language.
God Bless
Stef
If the duration is infinite, isn’t the torment equivalent?
Here is an infinite number series: {1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,…}
Here is another one not so “severely” populated: {2,4,6,8,10,…}
But there are not twice as many numbers in the first set. There’s exactly the same number of elements in the second set as in the first.
There is an infinite number of elements in each of the sets.
So infinite torment in all cases adds up to the same quantity of torment.
If this were true, in consequence it would have been Jesus’ sacrifice that had created the necessity of hell, think about if this can reasonably be true.
The problem with the theory you have against sinning against Christ is it is based on salvation through the law and humans works. This is rejection of God’s Love and Grace. In my opinion this is the great slap in the face to God for the sacrifice He made to redeem His creation.
I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. Galatians 2:21