The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Will God stay angry?

Someone pointed out to me that God will not stay angry. What about Psalms 7:11? Now believe me. I am not using this verse to prove that God remains angry everyday, but to point out the futility in pulling bible verses to prove a point.

My real question is. I was taught that God is eternal therefore all His attributes are eternal; attributes being mercy, kindness, generous, wrath, anger, jealousy, just etc… If God is eternal then why would any of His attributes cease?

i suppose for me, i’d have to say that ascribing the attribute of anger to God is what i disagree with.
i think the ability to become angry with sin must be a part of His character, but it seems to me that a large number of scriptures in the Bible deny that God will be angry forever…that verse in Psalms 7 seems to me to be a comment on how God deals with sin everyday.

my belief about God’s anger is that it must be very different to our own. we get angry when we are injured or scared, or when injustice happens, etc.
often anger is exascerbated by the lack of knowledge of how things will turn out, or perhaps a lack of knowledge of the offending person’s reasons or background, or any other circumstances that may’ve led to them acting as they did. things which, if known, might cause us to at least pity rather than revile that person.

God knows all, and so cannot be surprised when we sin. His anger then, must be wholly rational, and to a purpose. His anger must persue a goal and accomplish it, at which point (according to some of those verse you’re referring to) it ceases, and His mercy takes over. He wounds, but then He binds and heals.
i see this so often in the OT, that it surprises me the NT seems (if ECT is embraced as a doctrine) to contradict that more merciful approach. certainly, God caused disasters and wars on the OT which don’t seem that merciful…but in all that He nearly always promises eventual restoration for those punished. if the NT is a better covenant, than it seems odd that suddenly that “wound then heal” pattern is replaced with “tolerate for a bit and then not only wound but torture forever”

so i believe His anger is not like our anger at all. we lash out…but God disciplines. if God disciplines, than He also loves (as Hebrews says about Him chastising those He loves). if He loves, than His anger is born of love, and must then accomplish the goal of love…which in my opinion to reconcile.

punishing and remaining angry enough to punish for all eternity seems pointless to me…a futile action that does not benefit either God or the person being punished.

that as i say is my view. hope it helps clear up one possible answer to this

There is no contradiction with Psalms 7:11 and the verses I gave you. Just because God sees something everyday that makes him indignant doesn’t make him indignant forever. How is it futile to study scriptures to determine the character of God? Didn’t God give us his word to reveal himself to us? Yes, you can take scriptures out of context, but I don’t see how reading many scriptures that point out over and over again certain attributes of God is taking them out of context. Are you saying that God does remain angry forever? Do you not use scripture to determine truth? Do you really believe it is futile to use scripture to prove a point?

Concerning the verse, “God is a righteous judge, a God who displays his wrath every day.” it does not say that “God is wrath”, doest not affirm that wrath is an aspect of the character of God.

Is “wrath” an “attribute” of God, or is such a natural outflow of His love? I believe the latter. Love is an aspect of God’s character. He is love even when He’s mad as hell!

Since this is a question on theological cogency, allow me to answer on the same ground: to say that God’s anger and wrath never cease because God is eternal, must by the same token mean that God has always been and always is angry and wrathful, and would have always been even if God had not created anything not-God.

That can be truly said about God’s love, if trinitarian (or at least binitarian) theism is true, thus also about God’s kindness and generosity, also about God’s positive justice (which in Greek is dikaiosune, the fulfillment of fair-togetherness between persons). Not true about God’s mercy, notably, insofar as mercy in the popular sense applies to those who have sinned against the one being merciful. (In the older and more positive sense mercy would mean graciousness, the giving of joy to other people, and that would apply as a characteristic of God, even if God had never create not-God persons to be gracious to: the Persons of God give joy to one another.)

But God’s anger and wrath? (And maybe jealousy? The Persons might be jealous of each other in some positive way I guess, perhaps…)

Who is God supposed to be angry against from all eternity even if He never creates?? Who does God enact wrath against from all eternity?! An equally uncreated anti-God???

God’s anger and the enaction of that anger as wrath, are typically understood as contingent actions of God. They are not what God essentially is: God self-exists by loving persons (the Father loving the Son, the Son loving the Father, and the Spirit proceeding, not begetting or being begotten, as the first action of each of the other persons beyond eternal self-generation of Godhood–God being graciously given as a gift by God to God).

God does not self-exist by wrathing against persons. The wrath has a beginning and so can have an end. God can stop doing wrath, just like He can start doing wrath, and can do other things without doing wrath.

It may also be more simply answered that if God never stops doing wrath against sin, then in fact there is no salvation from sin, whether by the sacrifice of the Son or not (or whether or not in that sacrifice the Father expends His wrath against the Son instead of against actual sinners–a proposition antithetical to trinitarian theism, not incidentally.)

The question is not whether God stops doing wrath toward sinners, or there would be no question of salvation at all. The pertinent question is why God stops doing wrath toward sinners.

(And whether God is acting to fulfill that condition toward all or only some sinners. And whether God will persist acting to fulfill that condition or not.)

Back to stomach flu. :wink:

Isaiah 57:16

New International Version (©1984)
I will not accuse forever, nor will I always be angry, for then the spirit of man would grow faint before me–the breath of man that I have created.

New Living Translation (©2007)
For I will not fight against you forever; I will not always be angry. If I were, all people would pass away–all the souls I have made.

English Standard Version (©2001)
For I will not contend forever, nor will I always be angry; for the spirit would grow faint before me, and the breath of life that I made.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"For I will not contend forever, Nor will I always be angry; For the spirit would grow faint before Me, And the breath of those whom I have made.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.

GOD’S WORD® Translation (©1995)
I will not accuse you forever. I will not be angry with you forever. Otherwise, the spirits, the lives of those I’ve made, would grow faint in my presence.

Psalm 7:11 has a very interesting range of translations;

King James Bible (1611)
God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.

Yes they added the ‘with the wicked’ part can you believe it? I can.

New Living Translation (©2007)
God is an honest judge. He is angry with the wicked every day.

This version is much more underhanded, it doesn’t even put the the words that don’t belong in italics

New International Version (©1984)
God is a righteous judge, a God who expresses his wrath every day.

English Standard Version (©2001)
God is a righteous judge, and a God who feels indignation every day.

Now he only feels indignation, he doesn’t express it?

Now let’s see what these other versions have to say,

Douay-Rheims Bible
God is a just judge, strong and patient: is he angry every day?

Young’s Literal Translation
God is a righteous judge, And He is not angry at all times.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
God, the Judge of truth, is not angry every day.

Brenton’s English Translation of the Septuagint
God is a righteous judge, and strong, and patient, not inflicting vengeance every day.

How is it that this one verse can have 3 very different meanings? I’ll let Clarke’s Commentary answer that for you…

Very interesting, Awakening. :slight_smile:

Of course, even if we take the Hebrew at face value, that God is angry at the wicked every day, I wonder what happens when they, through His mercy the refining fire of His wrath, cease to be wicked. :wink:

Edit to add: Apparently, I misread Clarke’s commentary (or, rather, I didn’t bother to read the Hebrew for myself). The verse in Hebrew simply says, “And God is expressing wrath every day.” Regardless, I don’t think that requires any insistence that wrath will last forever–only that it will last as long as there is something to make Him angry.

I often pause when I read the poetic works of the Old Testament, and I ponder not only the meaning of what was stated, but also the style and overall message within a relatable context. Which brings me to this question: Is He actually ever really angry? Or are we attributing human emotions to God in order to more accurately relate to characteristics we might not otherwise understand?

I am specifically referring to the sort of poetic license which might have infused this particular psalm, as well as other psalms (and other O.T. writings) with anthropomorphism. And I suppose it only makes sense; after all, if God’s ways are higher than ours, and his thoughts exceed ours, wouldn’t a bit of poetic stylizing be in order–and was it not typical of ancient Hebrew poetry anyway? Perhaps I am overanalyzing something which could be taken at face value, but I can’t help but wonder whether there were efforts to make God more palatable to people than He otherwise might have been without the vivid imagery which depicts Him as a warrior riding the wind, hurling thunderbolts, stretching his hand, etc. I am reminded of various examples, among which are the following:

(He) "stoops down to look on the heavens and the earth” (Psalm 113:6)

“By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, and by the breath of His mouth all their host.” (Psalm 33:6)

“The eyes of the Lord are toward the righteous, and His ears are open to their cry.” (Psalm 34:15)

“Be gracious to me, O God, be gracious to me, for my soul takes refuge in Thee; and in the shadow of Thy wings I will take refuge, until destruction passes by.”

And it certainly isn’t limited to The Psalms; it is actually quite prevalent in Genesis and Exodus, as well.

David