The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Words Meaning "Chastisement" Not Used of the Impenitent

Evangelical Universalism Arguments against Evangelical Universalism
#1

“It is very remarkable that the terms in Greek which would carry the meaning of punishment for the good of the offender are never used in the New Testament of the infliction which comes upon the impenitent; these are paideia and paideuo, and they are frequently used of the “chastisement” of believers, but not of the impenitent. It is often claimed that the word kolasis used in Matthew 25:46 carries the meaning of chastisement for the improvement of the offender, but although Aristotle, in comparing it with timoria, may seem to suggest that it is meant for the improvement of the offender (what he really says is that it is tou paschontos heneka, “on account of the one suffering it,” “has the punished one in view,” whereas timoria is tou poiountos, “on account of the one inflicting” “that he may be satisfied”), the usage even in classical Greek is predominantly against making the supposed distinction. Both words are used interchangeably by the leading classical authors, including Aristotle himself, and kolasis is continually employed where no thought of betterment can be in question, while all admit that in Hellenistic Greek the distinction is not maintained, and in any case **timoria **is also used of the punishment of the sinner (Hebrews 10:29).” (The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia Online) :wink:

Hebrews 12:5-8 proves without a doubt that, if God does not chastise me ( paideia and paideuo) then I am an impenitent unbeliever and a bastard and not a son.

Matthew 16:27
"27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

One would think that the combination of months of torment and death ( from fire, smoke, plagues, and brimstone) would bring men and women to their knees in repentance, but such is not the case. (Rev 16:7-9) (Rev 20:10-15) These judgments are not remedial but retributive.

Hell and the LOF do not improve, correct, change or regenerate anyone. They are not hospitals for the sick; they are prisons for the condemned!

I challenge anyone to show evidence in the NT of God using ( paideia and paideuo) “chastising” impenitent unbelievers for remedial purposes. :smiley:

#2

Okay, I take up the challenge.

This charge I entrust to you, Timothy, my child, in accordance with the prophecies previously made about you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.(I Tim 1:18-20 ESV)

The English “may learn” is in the active voice, but the Greek word is in the passive voice, which in its lexical form is none other than “παιδευω” (or “paideuo” as you write it). “that they may be chastised not to blaspheme”. Rotherham’s translation puts it this way, "that they may be taught by discipline not to be defaming. To be taught by discipline is to be chastised.

Now it’s true that Hymenaeus and Alexander were once believers, but they made shipwreck of their faith! There were no longer believers. Until Paul handed them over to Satan for chastisement, they were doubtless impenitent as well. They were blaspheming!

Though unbelievers whom God sends to hell may be impenitent, they will become penitent after they are chastised, just as Paul expected Hymenaeus and Alexander to be after they received their chastisement from Satan.

#3

Revival, The LOF is God’s presence and there is NO getting away from it, ever. :smiley:

You on the other hand almost seem to WANT the LOF to be ECT so that billions of people including yours and ours loved ones to permanently be away from God’s presence to suffer immensely in torment for all eternity. You promote it so much and with such enthusiasm that i do often wonder about you. :confused:

#4

Could a person who is shipwrecked of their faith be tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the sleight of men, and not be lost? Absolutely!. :wink: This verse no where indicates a loss of salvation. You are adding that to the text. Nice try though. :smiley:

BTW, Hymaneous and Alexander are not impenitent unbelievers but repentant believers who are doctrinally shipwrecked but not yet lost. :wink:

#5

It doesn’t matter what I want, Caroleem, it only matters what has been established in God’s word. I don’t want a single soul to go to Hell and eventually to the eternal LOF but that is not my call…all I can do is like Paul said in 1 Cor 9:22 “To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men,** that I might by all means save some.”**

#6

Abraham argued with God. Jacob wrestled with God. Moses stood between God and Israel. Job furiously summoned God to court (and God came.) David’s anger burned against God (and he was a man after God’'s own heart.) The Samaritan woman argued with Jesus (and Jesus gave in.)

“What you want” matters. If you are prepared to let your God commit atrocities without raising a voice in protest, you will find yourself up to the neck in refining fire. The true God loathes flattery and cowardice. (He also has a very low view of people who hope to find eternal life by studying a book.) Good-hearted atheists who angrily reject all gods who act monstrously will be welcomed into Paradise by choirs of angels. (The last shall be first.)

#7

God still destroyed Sodom and Gormorah. Moses led Israel out of Egypt only to have Joshua and Caleb enter into the promise land. ( a type and shadow of salvation) My God is not committing atrocities otherwise He would not be God. His judgments are righteous and just whether you agree with them or not. Good-hearted atheists (if they die an atheist) will open their eyes and found out how wrong they were while being tormented not refined by the flames of Hell as the Richman.

Extrapolating beyond what Scripture clearly reveals and assuming something in a text by human reason and logic does not make it true, Allan. :wink:

My prayers and preaching the gospel to the lost can and will make a difference to some but it doesn’t violate their will. They have to make the choice in the end. Life or death. God says choose life!

PS I’m want to hear your biblical response to my OP not my response to Caroleem’s accusations that lead to off topic rabbit trails. :wink:

#8

So how do you deal with the passage that says that S&G will be restored to their former state?

#9

What passage are you talking about, Jeff?

#10

Ezekiel 16:53 'However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,

#11

Aaron,
Do you believe God doesn’t love the impenitent?

Sonia

#12

What does this verse have anything to do with my OP?

#13

I posted what you were asking Jeff about…

You then asked…

And i posted the verse in which i assumed Jeff was referring to, which was…

Ezekiel 16:53 'However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them,

Hope that explains it for you… :sunglasses:

#14

Of course not, Sonia. God not loving the impenitent is not the issue. Only erroneous exegetical methodology birthed out of false premises rooted in human logic and subjects Scripture to these false premises so that it appears to yield what the false premises demand says “God loves the impenitent unbeliever so much that He chastises them for remedial purposes either in this life or the afterlife to bring them eventually to salvation.” yet no where in God’s word supports this and it contradicts other scriptures.

#15

This is very true except i wouldn’t have posted the rolling eye smilie. :wink:

#16

:confused:

#17

I don’t even have any idea what you’re talking about there. :confused: I am going by what the word of God says, not any of that mumbo jumbo. We here at EU are going by God’s word, not what you believe we are going by. :wink:

#18

Of course not, you just ignore the context of my post to Sonia( and my OP) like you do with scripture and you make comments. :unamused:

#19

What is your goal here Revival? Why are you, and why have you been in various reiterations, on this forum?

#20

I could have sworn some of us have said that same thing about you. :wink: