Eaglesway… THIS is “apocalyptic genre” and by its very nature and purpose is ‘colourful, vivid and loud’… it is NOT presented as a wooden literalistic diagram of cataclysmic cosmic ends. The ONLY world under Divine threat was the OC world. Out of this passage what you have is a… blackened sun, and reddened moon and stars falling to the ground. ONE star alone literally by itself would demolish this planet by it radiation should it get close enough, let alone pulverise the globe to nothing should we actually collide. Again the language of moving mountains and islandsis apocalyptic NOT literal!
Anyone with an eye to OT language KNOWS that “sun, moon and stars” and whatever is said to happen to them is INDICATIVE of LEADERSHIP, in the case of Revelation, that’s the leadership of Israel… John is using a familiar genre for example, looking back to the OT for bearing and reference – Joseph’s father and brother roundly scold him as he relates his dream that THEY UNDERSTOOD had reference to THEM in terms of “the sun, moon and stars bowing to him” Gen 37:9-11. In kind with this is the prophetic dirge against Babylon/Egypt/Israel etc… again in cosmic language, as per Isa 13:10; 24:21-23; Ezek 32:7; Joel 2:30-31. This is NOT the language of simplistic wooden literalism, it carried MEANING.
Now the same can be said for all the other passages you quote MANY of which AREN’T saying all that YOU are implying they say.
Thats a very limited view, true within is scope. But the scope of the gospel is the restoration of all things throughout the ages. He is abolishing “all rule power and authority.”
The application to which you limit the metaphor falls far short of its transcendence, which is why those phrases reappear through the OT AND THE NEW.
Where you are incorrect, imo, is to limit it to the leadership of Israel, in that earthly time, and that is at the very core of the error of full preterism.
“These things were written for our example that we might not follow in the same manner of disobedience”.
That was the microcosm through which He is educating the macrocosm- setting the whole creation free from futility into the glorious liberty of the children of God. The sun, the moon the stars- they represent all of the principalities and powers in the heavens- as well as their earthly representatives. All of the “stoicheon”- elementary principles in their orbits, being “released”…
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements(stoicheia) will be destroyed(lythēsetai- dissolved, untied) with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up(heurethēsetai-exposed, found out).
To this extent you have a point…
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
The day is for exposure and loosing the bonds of ungodly powers, on earth and in heaven. But that point is just a glimpse of a more expansive matrix hidden in the scriptures, extending to the creation of a new heavens and a new earth.
And on this mountain He will swallow up the** covering which is over all peoples,
Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.**
**He will swallow up death for all time,
**
Since all these things are to be destroyed(lyomenōn-dissolved, untied) in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat! 13 But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
I mean, actually i dont believe one’s exact dispensational view of all that is anywhere near as important as understanding the ultimate transition/transformation and the nature of it.
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20** For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.**
But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13** each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.** 14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
His saying “I am coming quickly and my reward is with me”…and “I am He that tries the reins in the hearts” goes to the heart of it i think.
However, I joined the discussion at this post because I am reading “A Case for Amillennialism” by Riddlebarger which has many compelling arguments. Riddlebarger is not UR, but he still makes note worthy observations about the use of “this age and the age to come”.
Remember I read this and yes indeed it was very good.
“Behold, I am going to send My messenger, and he will clear the way before Me. And the Lord, whom you seek, will suddenly come to His temple; and the messenger of the covenant, in whom you delight, behold, He is coming,” says the Lord of hosts. 2 “But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears? For He is like a refiner’s fire and like fullers’ soap. 3 He will sit as a smelter and purifier of silver, and He will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, so that they may present to the Lord offerings in righteousness. 4 Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the Lord as in the days of old and as in former years.
I am pan millennial too.Always jumping outta the frying pan and into the fire… Rub a dub dub its a fiery scrub.
Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
Actually i dont think any dispensational view detracts that much from UR. Even if this is the final age, it must include before it ends the judgment of all, the subjection of all, the reconciliation of all and the restoration of all before it concludes. For me, UR is a clear scriptural absolute- repeated in so many ways as to be much clearer than exactly how the ages pan out.
But I am a pre millenial post tribulationist at the present time.
No. The ‘age to come’ is simply the period in which Christ would reign from heaven with his Apostles, holy saints and angels for one thousand years, until Satan is released from his bondage (Revelation 20:7,8). In my view, those one thousand years have already passed. The Christian Church (the Second Israel) is now divided and scattered among the nations. However, the Kingdom of God is still within us (Luke 17:21), and we must still strive to live it out even in the midst of our divisions and Satan’s persecutions.
An interesting answer from the beginning of the thread.
If the following passage from Isaiah speaks of the coming Millenium (and as a historic premillenialist not a dispensationalist, I think it does), then this passage indicates that children will be born. And it indicates that there will be sinners. Also the creation of a new heavens and earth indicates a renewed heavens and earth rather a total destruction of the present heavens and earth, and creation of a new one as in Jude and 2 Peter:
I think the creation of the new heavens and the new earth begins with the millennial age. I dont think it ends there. At present I dont think that there will be a completion of the new heavens and new earth until God is all in all. I also dont think the etrnal age will begin untill God is all in all.
As long as there are adversaries, death is still in effect and God is not, yet, all in all.
As I read it(historic pre millennial) there are adversaries remaining, expressed as Satn being released at the end of the 1000 years. Then, as the Great White Throne proceeds, there will still be adversaries, and they will be cast into the lake of fire for aionian kolassis. Since death is the last enemy and the lake of fire is the second death, I believe that represents an age in the administraion suitable to the fulness of times, an age devoted to the subjection of the adversaries that remain after the Great White Throne.
The eternal age cannot begin, imo, until God is all in all.
It’s fine to believe this BUT in terms of proving your theory you are left without any biblical texts saying such, and those that sound something similar are ACTUALLY saying something quite DIFFERENT…
These texts are CLEAR… “the fullness of time” constituting “these last days” CAME THEN with and in Jesus!
Your theory denies this scripture above showing “the ends of the ages” CAME ALREADY upon on Jesus’ generation.
Again… “the fullness of the times” (plural) EQUATES TO “the ends of the ages” (plural) which was CLEARLY IN THEIR DAY. We are NOT in “the last days” we are beyond them.
The assumption on your part is that He is not… rather bold.
The apostle Paul was also pretty bold in saying the same:
Paul is talking about a time when all are subjected to Christ. Clearly not all are subjected to Christ yet. There are million of rebels against Him, and billions who do not yet know Him. It is only when all have been reconciled to Him, that the Son, whom God made King in the Kingdom of God, will Himself be subject to God, so that God will be the supreme authority, and will be all in all.
Does any apparent… lack of the knowledge of or subservience to God mean He is not indeed “all in all”? Hardly!
Could you not be judging more according to the flesh i.e., assessing according your own limited view? For example… would your rejection of Justin Trudeau cause him to cease being your prime minister? Hardly! Supposing you neither “confess nor believe in” i.e., acknowledge or affirm Trudeau as yours and your nation’s “leader”, well guess what, any lack or opposition on your account does not change the fact that he IS your PM. Poor comparisons I know… BUT God is so MUCH more the “God of all” BECAUSE OF Christ’s FINISHED work establishing the reconciliation; thus God being “all in all”. It doesn’t come down to what “we see” but what the “Word says”.
Paul is talking about a time when all are subjected to Christ. Clearly not all are subjected to Christ yet. There are million of rebels against Him, and billions who do not yet know Him. It is only when all have been reconciled to Him, that the Son, whom God made King in the Kingdom of God, will Himself be subject to God, so that God will be the supreme authority, and will be all in all.
Paul is talking about a time when all are subjected to Christ. Clearly not all are subjected to Christ yet. There are million of rebels against Him, and billions who do not yet know Him. It is only when all have been reconciled to Him, that the Son, whom God made King in the Kingdom of God, will Himself be subject to God, so that God will be the supreme authority, and will be all in all.
For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing that is not subject to him. But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him. Heb 2:8
There are many assumptions made by all. I am sure I have incorrect assumptions within my present beliefs but I just dont think this is one of them. Clearly all things are not yet subject to Him in the sense that all things have not yet been gathered into one in Him. This is a process for the ages imo, and of course i am aware that we(Davo) differ on that.
But consider this.
God is not forcing all into Christ. He is drawing all into Christ. “No man comes to Me except the Father draw him.”
“As in Adam all men died so also in Christ shall all be made alive, but each in His own order.”
"In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His [k]kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up(gathering together into one) of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.“This is a process of setting men free from futility into the glorious freedom of the children of God”.
Paul asserts that the revelation of the children of God for which all creation yearns will occur “at the redemption of our bodies” He begins that discourse saying, “For the sufferings of this present time are not to be compared with the glory** that is to be revealed** to us”
He also says that when He appears “we will appear with Him in glory”, and John asserts, “Brethren, we know not yet what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we will be like Him for we shall see Him as He is.” This goes along with a number of other verses of the same tone.
I think these things are fairly plain right on the face of the scriptures. I dont have to re-interpet much in this view. James calls us “a kind of first-fruits of His creation”, and one last thing…
Do you remember when Jesus said, “Do not touch me for I have not yet ascended to the Father” and also John records, “For the Holy Spirit had not yet been given because Jesus had not yet been glorified”.
We will be like Him for we shall see Him as He is. We will appear with Him in glory. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.(Rom 8:30)
He has been glorified. We will be like Him, in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye. We have not yet been glorified. “But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.”(Rom 8:25)
This glorification we will experience in the resurrection is in too many places to ignore, the signal event of the end of this age, along with His appearing in glory. Nothing in scripture indicates that that is the end of the ages either. It is only the beginning of “the period of the restoration of all things spoken of by all the prophets since ancient times”.(Acts 3:19) Jesus is the One “whom the heavens must receive until” that period begins, and He has been received in the heavens, and He will return to usher in that period, which has yet to begin(imo, of course).
