But if that were the case, Trudeau would not be IN me—in my heart and mind, a hero that I followed. He would be forcing his dictatorship upon me. God is going to be ALL (things) in ALL (people). God never uses force, but woos those who are about to follow Him. Clearly God is not yet all things in all people.
There are just some predictions, Davo, that don’t fit into 70 A.D.
Eagle… you are right, we ALL have assumptions and bias’. I do understand where you & co. are coming from because as a former futurist myself (amill) been there done that. This is one reason I have no issues with being wrong, I don’t like being wrong and mostly prefer being right, BUT “being right” is not my pressing need. Some 30yrs ago after a lifetime in the a-mill camp I stepped into the post-mill camp for a decade (very similar to a-mill but a heck more positive) and from there (as a partial prêterist without knowing it or even hearing the term) in the late 90’s into “covenant eschatology” aka full prêterism.
I said that to say this… I’ve come to the realisation that “being right” is rather fluid or relative and that regardless of what is perceived to be “right doctrine” God doesn’t lose any sleep IF/WHEN I don’t have my ducks all in a row. He has ALWAYS believed in me no matter what drum I was/have been passionately beating. IOW… my beliefs don’t hinder His beliefs. Mine CAN hinder me… and that’s where I’ve found “for me” my journey into what I describe and term as pantelism has freed me from the strictures of religianity.
Thus like you & co. I wear certain glasses as I read the bible, it’s just that THAT reading in my experience/journey makes more sense of many peculiar conundrums inherent within the old evangelicalism I was birthed into, and I’ve found it incredibly liberating to be able to push certain “assumptions” aside to see, not nothing, but a whole differing vista.
Anyway, speaking of glasses… the above verse, as I understand it, was pertinent TO THEIR day PRIOR TO ‘the coming of the Lord’ (which again was ONLY ‘world-ending’ in terms of the OC religious world, not terra firma or the literal universe… JUST LIKE the OT records show Yahweh’s coming in judgment is portrayed, on clouds and at the hand of opposing nations etc).
QUESTION: Since for you this is “clearly”… HOW do you know this and on what basis can you say this is true?
Well there’s a couple of things to say about this… I’m assuming you believe Jesus’ “I will draw all men to myself” – same Greek word <ἕλκω> helkō… this is what Calvary did, so kind of goes against what you are saying. But not only that, the word literally means to draw or drag along.
Man had no say about being placed into the first Adam… what makes you think God needed anyone’s permission in putting man into the last Adam?
As I understand it… “the creation” of Rom 8:19-23 was ‘historic ISRAEL’ the people of God (Isa 43:1, 7, 21) awaiting their redemption; their CORPORATE redemption… hence the meaning of Paul’s “all Israel” - THIS was the corporate BODY to be raised “in Christ”. Israel = “the creation” who were eagerly waiting for “the revealing of the sons of God” i.e., “the firstfruits of the Spirit” – none other than the disciples of Christ, aka Paul and Co. THIS was “the sufferings of this present time” i.e., the persecutions prior to the Parousia.
Consider:
According to John it was… “not yet apparent what they should be.” It would be presumptuous to ASSUME he was speaking of physical resurrection in this verse, considering Jesus’ post resurrection manifestations so many witnessed – they knew what Jesus was like – Lk 24:31, 35-43; Jn 20:24-29; 21:1-14; 1Cor 15:5-8. There were numerous witnesses: Paul on the road to Damascus encountered a very different Jesus (in form) than did Thomas or the folk on the Emmaus road. Paul speaking said… “we (Paul and his audience)* now know Christ no longer after the flesh.*” 2Cor 5:16. Seeing Him as He is speaks of THEM the first century firstfruit saints experiencing their “GLORIFIED” Lord in His coming (Mt 16:27-28), and subsequently sharing in that glory (Rom 8:18).
It seems what is being ignored in too many places are the texts CLEARLY stating THEY were in “the end of the age” THEN. HOW do you seemingly and so easily dismiss the texts mentioned above… Gal 4:4-5; Heb 1:1-2; 1Cor 10:11; Eph 1:10.… do these NOT exist? Or even…
…how do you rationalise away “but now, once at the end of the ages”? IT HAPPENED THEN.
Again… when taking into account “covenantal change” from old to new THEIRS was “the period of the restoration of all things spoken of by all the prophets since ancient times” – THIS was the great ‘hope of Israel’.
It comes down to perspective… Paul’s 1Cor 15:28 “all in all” was the consummated reality of what God had already put in train “in Christ” as per…
The passage in Ephesians 4 clearly does not refer to all people in the world:
The “all” in this passage refers to all the Ephesian Christians to whom Paul was writing.
By contrast, the “all” in 1 Corinthians DOES refer to all people—only because at that time all people will be subject to Him.
Here are the events and states that Paul describes in 1 Cor 15:
THEN:
5. the Son will be subject to the Father that God may be all in all.
So what… 
this must be the universalist exception where NOW conveniently “all” DOESN’T magically mean “all” 
What became true for the believer by extension became true for “all” – follow the biblical principle… “to the Jew FIRST and THEN the Greek.” IOW… what God would do in subjecting the world unto reconciliation He would do first for Israel unto redemption “in Christ”.
So you think God is now in all people—murderers, torturers, child molesters, etc. etc.
Amazing the extent to which full preterists will go!
IOW Paidion… YOU reduce God being “all in all” to one’s WORKS… good going! So WHEN not IF you sin, is God (the hope of glory) IN you, or does He depart for a time to conveniently facilitate a degree of sin acceptably less than your guesstimations listed above?? This is the problem with thoughtless inconsistency.
No I don’t. The evil deeds I described are the outworking of evil people in whom God does not dwell,and who were never on the narrow path that leads to life.
When I stay on the narrow path that Christ described, God is in me all the time. But if I get off that path and take my own course, He departs.
My position is neither thoughtless nor inconsistent, unlike full preterism, that make no sense—Jesus returning in 70 A.D., though there is no record or report of anyone having seen Him, whereas John said in Revelation 1:7, “Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.” Talk about inconsistency!
The argument is an endless one, based in a different perception and understanding of certain verses that mean one thing to one person and another thing to another- not to say that they mean different things, No scripture is given to any mans private interpretation, not to say that my interpretation is the correct one.
We attempt to interpret the scriptures* through the scriptures* with the illumination of the Holy Spirit, and those attempts are not thoughtless, imo, by anyone in the conversation.
Inconsistencies are what we hope to transcend- hence, conversation.
I don’t see how Eph 1:10 can be read without Eph 2:7, where Paul states there are ages to come. I think Ephesians 1 and 2 constitue a single integral expression of thought regarding the mystery of the gospel. We may be in the end of this age. The question could be in that case, “Are there further ages or not”.
A legitimate question, not really thoughtless, since Paul says there are ages to come, in Eph 2:7, which we can ignore, but we cannot eliminate- that would be thoughtless and inconsistent in my opinion.
The last adversary is death, and death has been subjected in the finished work of Christ, works finished from the foundation of the world…
But if we apply that too literally then why was the world that was before Noah destroyed? Why was the law instituted and then nullified? Why any of the procession of ages between creation and Christ if the manifestation of the work was not apart of the completion of the “administration suitable to the fulness of times”?
It is the scriptures that say, “But we do not yet see… all things subjected to Him.” it is not a random personal assumption by me regardless of whether or not we see that verse in the same way.
Where we disagree, IMO, is whether there is a scriptural hope stated that is not yet fulfilled…
“For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what they already have? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.”
The hope that Paul is speaking of is the setting free of all creation from futility into the “glorious liberty of the children of God”. It is well begun but there is more yet to hope for, more hope to see fully realized, and the “how and when” of that playing out is the disagreement. Part of that, in the historical view, is the “revelation of the sons of God” at “the resurrection of our bodies.”
Death will be swallowed up in immortality.
I wish more believers saw the completed work of Christ. I agree it was finished from the foundation of the world. This is the appeal, and the grace, of the Preterist view, which offers many wonderful insights into why we can rest assured that all is going according to plan. We just disagree on the details of the plan 
The full preterist is missing a couple cogs in the wheel of the ages(imo)- and Israel, as it was, was fully destroyed upon the cross- and fully renewed- as it is now, through the resurrection of Christ- not in 70 AD.
The work was finished from the foundation of the world because the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, and through that death resurrection became the fulfillment of the covenant among the children of God, Jew and Gentile. The Gentiles came in immediately, testifying that the old was destroyed and the new begun- in 33 AD.
The scepter was transferred on the day of Pentecost, when the ONE NEW MAN was anointed as the preisthood and the nation, the wall of partition having been razed in Christ. Now, ALL SUCH DIVISIONS are being subsumed through RESURRECTION(Romans 8). We, as believers are the “first-fruits of creation”(James 1:4) because we have received the resurrection(each in his own order).
“As IN ADAM ALL DIED, so also IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE” is the only division left, and that will be destroyed as well as every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of the Father… as all things in heaven and earth are gathered together into one in Christ…until the last enemy is subjected and death is done away- fully swallowed up.
At least we can all agree that this hope will be fulfilled in time, as it has been fulfilled already in heaven through Christ.
“Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.”
Ok… so this helps explain your belief mentioned elsewhere that there is yet more penalty and punishment to be paid for your sin (beyond what Calvary accomplished) postmortem via a ‘lake of fire’. This in my estimation undermines the veracity and completeness of the Cross in that your position suggests YOU/WE do in fact of our own effort and volition eventually secure one’s own exiting of the aforementioned torturous state of this ‘lake of fire’.
A further major problem to this notion is of course there are NO texts of Scripture suggesting such a scenario, i.e., yours is an assumption brought to and read into the text.
QUESTION: Knowing as you do, as in, you claim “He departs” from your life… HOW do you measure and manage the degree of personal “evil” you harbour that causes God to depart from your life.
HISTORY is the record… the only thing you’re missing to see it is an understanding of the prophetic language used in describing the event. Yahweh’s ‘Coming in judgment/s’ recorded in the OT use the same “cloud coming” apocalyptic language… they all “saw” it i.e., THEY experienced it, “even those who pierced him” including the high priest (Isa 19:1; Ezek 30:3; Mt 26:64; Rev 1:7).
I tuned up my eschatology for my about to be published book as a result of the discussion in this post. If anyone is interested that article is online at dgjc.org/optiomism/eschatology-is-the-study-of-future-good-news.
Thanks for any feedback.
That’s a very good presentation, Jeff! I’ll have to study it later, but the layout and visual is right on. 
HISTORY is the record… the only thing you’re missing to see it is an understanding of the prophetic language used in describing the event. Yahweh’s ‘Coming in judgment/s’ recorded in the OT use the same “cloud coming” apocalyptic language… they all “saw” it i.e., THEY experienced it, “even those who pierced him” including the high priest (Isa 19:1; Ezek 30:3; Mt 26:64; Rev 1:7).
Paidion is not missing anything as he and I have dialogued with a very enthusiastic Full Preterist on another forum and there is not much we have not heard. Obviously we have different understandings of the scriptures and history relating to 70AD.
That’s all well and good because I don’t speak for all full prêterists being more in particular a pantelist myself. But that said… the OT Scriptures ARE clear as to the nature of God’s “comings” in judgment – why IGNORE these texts that show this and so help inform NT usage? Like it’s fine to disagree, no problem, but how about a bit of argumentation in favour of your view instead of just say so.
No doubt that is true, but again… how is it you refuse to see the likes of the texts mentioned as being an adequate guide to understanding NT usage?
Is God all in all? This depends upon one’s viewpoint. There are many who come from the point that if we do not have love, compassion, etc. etc. , then God is not in us or we are “without God”. However, I can see Davo’s point. For example, we all have physical bodies. We can use our bodies to for good, or we can use our bodies to perform evil acts. This does not take away the fact that we have a physical body. Our physical bodies are subject to certain laws that God has made, just as He has made all bodies subject to His laws, e.g. the earth orbits the sun, etc. etc… If one jumps off a cliff, the body is subject to the law of gravity, thus damage occurs. The same thing goes for our spiritual bodies. We all have one. It is only a matter off whether or not we use them for the true purpose for which they were given or for another purpose. In either case, we are subjected to the laws that govern all bodies.
In light of the present topic… HERE is an excellent article exploring differing views with regards to reading the prophetic (it’s not long). I might add… I agree wholeheartedly with the proposition given by the author, but unlike me he is NOT a pantelist, let alone a full prêterist.
Hi David, good article!
I have to say that I have been watching this exchange, and it is fascinating to me.
LLC said:
He makes a point that seems to come up time and time again. Somehow the notion amongst Christianity is that the second coming will somehow alter all the rules (laws) of physical creation. There is an emotional part of us that does not like pain from falling down, pain from disease, pain from loss etc… And we tend to emotionally take the view that what the preterist says can’t possibly be right because all those things will ultimately still exist.
It is a logic/emotion hurdle many are unwilling to explore. Is it possible that hurricanes and terrorists and disease and famine and drought all may be part of God’s plan to encourage us (mankind) to become overcomers?
Davo said
No one seems to be putting out detailed scriptural arguments refuting Davo’s position(s).
At some point, I personally had to admit to myself (after a bit of study) that the bible was a group of books written to/about a special group of people. It was through Israel that God did His miraculous work for all man kind. I realized Jesus was not my personal savior to be let into my heart, but the great reconciler and propitiation for sin. The sin of the world. And done through Israel, not a personal commitment. It (fulfilled eschatology), IMO is the only way that I myself could harmonize all scripture. I realize that Christ on the cross has done His atoning work.
No, I don’t have all the particulars down like some do, as I have many other Irons in the fire, but I know enough that for me, the full preterist position his hard to refute from a scriptural context.
A debate about Preterism is certainly useful. However, the subject of this forum post concerns the question of whether an Amillennial view of eschatology undermines Universal Reconciliation. I am still looking for more discussion on that point. Please respect the forum post titles or this website will simply become one giant gray swirl of argument.
IF I were a UR amillennialist I would simply point out the errant assumption driving Michael’s conclusions in the wrong direction and simply present the standard UR position of the (apparent) temporal nature of the LoF so many UR folk seem to hold… it’s NOT my position, but I fail to see HOW anyone embracing UR would see the amillennial position as a threat???
I think the threat is that the amill position is (-1) age compared to some other views. So it could threaten with the idea of no forgiveness in “the age to come.” For myself amill doubly threatened my view because I do not think human beings enter the LOF, but only the devil and his angels, so I am (-1) on that age as well. However, davo, since you hold a preterist position you are comfortable with the idea that “this age” is the Jewish age, and “the coming” is the age beyond the cross. That understanding breaks no rules of interpretation and easily answers the difficultly about amill that the author of the post raised. So on that point you and I share a happy agreement and hopefully we gave a good answer to the title of this post