The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Faith

Evangelical Universalism Arguments for Evangelical Universalism
#201

I have always felt it spurious to say Jesus didnt mean what He said when He says, “My Father is greater than I”, or “All authority on heaven and earth is given me by My Father”.

Why didnt He in any place follow any of His statements with an asterix and a long theological presentation on what He really didnt mean and what He only means for now and what it will really mean later?

Especially since only believing what He said as He said it is grounds for eternity in hell or at least excommunication and classification as a heretic and anathema from the body of Christ.

Why make something upon which the salvation of a soul depends so complex that it cannot be read in the Bible but must be read in the hundreds of years and hundreds of pages of convoluted reasonings and invented words that clergymen fought over for centuries.

I personally believe Jesus is God very God like a piece of dough torn from a lump of dough is “bread very bread”. Jesus is “the bite sized piece” of the Father. He is the Son, the unique, only begotten God. As such, He is the second Adam- declared to be the Son of God with power by the resurrection of the dead…

He is a new class of man, a new creation, the chief cornerstone of a habitation of God in the Spirit, being built of living stones; He is the Head of the body; He is the Root of the Olive tree, the True Vine.

But all that one needs to know is that the Almighty Invisible Creator Fathered a Son. Planted His seed in the womb of the earth, thereby making Him one with the earth and one with the Creator.

“God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself”. God was “in Christ”. That’s what made Him “Christ”- the anointed one, Messiah. Christ came “out of God” and “down from heaven” - a Son,

“This is My beloved Son, Listen to Him”

Jesus is not(imo) the modalist Son. He is beloved. A child of a Father, a young man beloved of His mother. Even as my son came up as another and I love him, so also the Father loves His son who is begotten of Him, beloved of Him, beheld by Him as precious. A gift of love to the earth and a sacrifice of pain.

“My God My God why have you forsaken me”.

How did God forsake Himself. Was Jesus for a moment no longer God? When did He become God?

For a little while lower than the angels, but crowned with glory and honor!

I personally think the whole dilemma is a matter of perspective, and the deficiency in our understanding of heaven, and what exists in the highest heaven.

What if the highest heaven exists in a state of perfection completely outside of time? What if the “half hour of silence in heaven” is the 33 years that the “word” of God, the “Logos” was walking through “the valley of the shadow of death”. It was silent because He was not there for that time.

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.

Made for a little while lower than the angels…

5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Ph 2

…crowned with glory and honor

And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb. rv 21:23

God is the light eminating from the Lamp, “No man has seen God at any time but the son of man He has revealed Him”(made Him visible, manifest)

The lines we draw are insufficient because our elevation is not sufficient to see beyond the horizon that God has made- the veil of the heavens…

“Brethren we know not yet what we shall be but we know that when He appears we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is.”

Transformed into His image, new creatures, begotten again not by the will of man or the will of the flesh but of God. Begotten from above by an incorruptible seed unto a fervent love of the brethren.

"That you may be one even as I and the Father are one…

If Jesus was on the earth for that half hour, and the sanctuary of heaven existed before and after(the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world…Father glorify me with the glory I had with thee before the world was), but…

“He who descended is also He who ascended that He might fill all things”(Eph 4) and now it is filling up because He ascended with a stream of captves in His train and that stream is still continually pouring through the Portal He opened…

“If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me”

The serpent on the stick healing the snake bite of sin and death, and all that is needed is a revelation of Christ crucified. That heals the wound. Period.

Not understanding the Godhead and naming it Trinity or Bi-nity of Modal or Whateverrrr LOL.

Isaac on the altar. Abraham the friend of God…he understood it. The pain. The sacrifice. He would gladly have offered himself in Isaac’s place. And Isaac was not Abraham, he was Abraham’s son. That’s what made Abraham the friend of God.It was something they shared.

#202

If I understand you correctly, this is precisely my belief. I understand your use of the word “God” as referring to the divine essence and is not identifying the Person of the Son with that of the Father.

“The only begotten God” (John 1:18, Papyrus 66 and Papyrus 75, the oldest manuscripts of John 1:18 in existence)

Your belief that, "Jesus is God very God like a piece of dough torn from a lump of dough is “bread very bread,” reminds me of Justin Martyr’s illustration of the begetting of the Son (except Justin would probably insist that the original lump of dough is not diminished in volume by tearing the piece from it).

—Dialogue With Trypho, chapter 61

#203

I would agree that the divine essence is not diminished by taking a piece from it, since God creates, and I do not believe anything He creates diminishes Him. I think some of the logic(including mine:)) applied to such questions is somewhat faulty in that we cannot see from His perspective, so our laws and rules are like children playing, making up rules as they go along. “You can’t tag me, am on base” “I call invisible, no one can see me”, etc. It works well within a construct everyone agrees to support, but as soon as some little one says, “Why not, God is God, He can do what He wants”, the paradigms fail, the constructs crash to the ground, the King’s New Clothes disappear. :laughing:

“WHo has known the mind of the Lord? And who has been His counselor?”

The glory of God is the divine exponential multiplication of grace. “By faith we know that the worlds were created by the word of God”. Something from nothing, Light shining out of darkness, Union and harmony arising out of chaos.

“Great grace was upon them all, and the word of the Lord grew and multiplied, and the Lord added daily to their number those apponited to salvation, and no one among them had any need, and they were all as one soul.”

God is good.

#204

So what makes Jesus any different from the prophets or the people who have spoken for God in the past? I believe this is where all the confusion comes into play because they were all men speaking for God. It is like a bunch of children quibbling over what their mom or dad has said, until the parent actually walks in and straightens it all out. To me, Jesus was God speaking for Himself.

Paidion, Eaglesway, maybe it’s just me and I am not understanding your views correctly. To me, the Bible is about the relationship between God and man only. However, what I get from your viewpoints as well as the Trinity is that an only begotten Son has been introduced. It seems the relationship is now between God and Jesus. What happened to the relationship between God and man?

#205

Eaglesway, You mentioned Matthew 27:46 in which Jesus says “My God ,My God , why have you forsaken Me?”

I do not interpret this verse as Jesus feeling forsaken by God and calling out to Him. Jesus knew what His mission was and knew what was going to happen in the end. He even tells the thief that he would be with Him in paradise. Why would he think God had forsaken Him? If you read the verse that follows, the people say Jesus was calling Elijah. From what I understand, Elijah was an Israelite. I believe that Jesus(God) was actually calling out to the people of Israel here, for they were the ones that had forsaken Him. Earlier, Jesus says that He longed to gather His children as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but they were unwilling. Had the people of Israel chosen Jesus instead of Barabbas, He would not have been upon the cross.

#206

Huge difference LLC… Jesus was God’s FINAL REDEMPTIVE WORD… the all encapsulating Alpha & Omega, the First & Last, the Beginning & End, His Yes & Amen (Rev 1:8; 22:13 2Cor 1:20) the one through whom ALL prophetic WORD found fullness and fulfilment, as per…

I’m inclined to think Jesus was feeling the full anguish of abandonment… that would be quite realistic IMO. However, the Peshitta (Aramaic) of this passage does give a different reading somewhat more in line with your thoughts:

#207

Not to scratch the scab off an old wound but if we do consider fulfilled eschatology, we can realize that Christ did what He was meant to do and sin is atoned for and death is defeated!

Is Christ’s death and resurrection actual or potential?

Seems to me so many on this forum still are questioning Christ’s redemptive sacrifice, as if for some reason it is incomplete or not sufficient. Why are we questioning this?

Beck says of ‘Wright’…

Theologically, the translational differences go to the issue of the actual versus potential nature of forgiveness. In Martin Luther’s rendering–faith in Jesus–forgiveness is potential. Forgiveness is contingent upon the act of faith. You need to believe and then, once you’ve done that, you are forgiven. By contrast, the New Perspective rendering–faith of Jesus–focuses upon the faithfulness of Jesus in creating a new reality. Because of the work of Christ on the cross the wall of hostility and accusation between God and humanity was finally and decisively broken down. Forgiveness becomes our new reality. A new world has been created. Everyone has already been forgiven in Christ. The call is to recognize this reality and live into it. To trust (have “faith in”) what the faithfulness of Jesus has accomplished for us “while we were yet sinners.”

This is truly good news… Yet so many will still doubt and try to slander the Christ.

#208

Especially… “The call is to recognize this reality and live into it.”

#209

MANY are questioning this? I don’t know of ANY who are questioning it. Who, specifically?

#210

Huh? Did something happen to it?

The Father and the Son have a perfect relationship and unity. And that same unity between Them and us is precisely that for which Jesus prayed:

I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. (John 17: 20, 21)

#211

Do you believe EVERYONE has been forgiven through Christ? :smiley:

#212

I believe everyone has been forgiven, but they cannot receive that forgiveness until they see Christ crucified. The forgiveness is there for them, in YHWH’s heart. Eventually everyone will be in YHWH’s heart. Jesus is the Door, just as He says.

As far as YHWH and man, Jesus is the bridge between God and man regardless of ones beliefs about the Trinity, etc.

I like the old, “personal relationship” thing. If you know Jesus you kno God and are known by God. The Lord knows those who are His. If you THINK you know Jesus but have no practicaal expression of love and charity in your heart- you may get a surprise in the light of the Day, but the resolution of that will be a true revelation of who He is, and who we ought to be in Him, that will lead to every knee bowed, and every tongue confessing the glory of His righteous loving Lordship over all.

The idea that rebellion and sin are not an impediment to the reception of grace is an anti scriptural fairy tale. Adversaries remain, and they will face kolassis, and when the relent they will experience remission and reconciliation.

#213

Yes Davo , I agree. There is a huge difference between Jesus and all others. As I mentioned, the difference is that Jesus was the one and only God speaking for Himself. For it is only the Father that has the final word, just as in my illustration of the quibbling children. You also brought up Luke 24:44-45. This is one of the reasons I believe Jesus to be the one true God. The entire Old Testament tells us all about the one and only God, and in the New Testament He comes to earth in the form of a man.

#214

Yes Davo , I agree. There is a huge difference between Jesus and all others. As I mentioned, the difference is that Jesus was the one and only God speaking for Himself. For it is only the Father that has the final word, just as in my illustration of the quibbling children. You also brought up Luke 24:44-45. This is one of the reasons I believe Jesus to be the one true God. The entire Old Testament tells us all about the one and only God, and in the New Testament He comes to earth in the form of a man. As to your last thought on Jesus feeling the pain of abandonment, the Old Testament also speaks of this many times when the people of Israel go off and worship other gods. It is as if your own child tells you he doesn’t love you after all that you have gone through in raising him and providing for him, This is a stab to the very heart.

#215

I defintely believ Jesus is the only begotten Son, and that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto HIMSELF. As it is written In Eph 1 and Col 1 the Father is doing that through the blood of His cross.

I have no axe to grind against anyones view of the Godhead except to discuss it- and as long as noone says "If you dont believe what I believe you cannot know Jesus Christ or His Father. I have seen the evil of that from several different directions. I also have no theory I would advance about exactly what happened in the spiritual realm at the cross.

I do however find it to be an extremely dubious idea that Jesus was using the name of God as an epithet as He appealed to the people for forsaking Him. He would have said, “My people, my people, why have you forsaken me”… but He wouldnt have said that either because He did not trust Himself to man because He knew what was in man.

Whatever happened to Jesus at he cross, experientially- I am certain He addressed God because He was speaking to God, even as He addressed the Father in prayer,

So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank You that You have heard Me. 42I knew that You always hear Me, but I say this for the benefit of the people standing here, so they may believe that You sent Me."

Jesus is more than any prophet. He is the only begotten Son of God, the bread of life coming down from heaven…sent by the Father, empowered by the Holy Spirit. How that goes together in one persons mind or another is fine with me until it becomes some religionist creed. I am certainly not attempting to create a new creed lol, but I do enjoy discussing it, because religion is a treacherous schoolmaster, and I love to ask the questions and posit the alternatives for the sake the soteriologists who are still repeating declarations form the apostate councils of the early Roman church(if ya wanna call it that ) and for the sake of those who have been intimidated into not thinking and asking questions because they have been and are being threatened for doing so. :astonished:)

#216

Eaglesway, I do agree that to know Jesus is to know God, because for me there is no other. I also agree that it is good to ask questions and discuss. You mentioned your thoughts on when Jesus says “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?” However, Jesus neither says “Father, why have you forsaken me?”, nor does He mention the name Yahweh. According to the next verse, He was addressing Elijah. Is Elijah God?

#217

Paidion, if I am reading you correctly, from what you are saying here as well as from what I understand others to be saying, we are to look upon the relationship between God and Jesus and imitate this or that the two together draw us into their loving circle. For me, this does not compute. It is as if one should look from the outside upon the love between a parent and child and try to relate. There is a special bond that exists between a parent and child due to the fact that the child is a very part of that parent. One cannot know of this bond unless you are that child or that parent. I believe God is our Father. We are each a very part of Him, as Eaglesway mentioned " a piece of dough torn from the very dough".

#218

That’s all fine to say but the sole reason you haven’t quoted a verse that says this is that none exist… quite the contrary:

Oneness of unity and purpose does NOT equate to what you are stating.

Really?? Explain “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.” who constitutes the “Son” and who constitutes the “I am”?

I go with the standard reading and understanding of abandonment as Jesus’ words reflect the LXX.

Most acknowledge, in their respective contexts, that “Father” is interchangeable with “God”. Nor was “Yahweh” mentioned because it was considered too sacred to pronounce. And as for “Elijah”… that’s what some hearing thought; they were simply wrong!

#219

El = God

2241 ēlí – the transliteration of the Hebrew noun ̓Ēl (“God”) with the suffix (ī) which means “my”; Eli (“my God”).

Why would Jesus pray to Elijah? In the very next verse it is translated by the narrator as “My God, My God, why have you forsaken me”.

One of the problems I have with the modalist view is that Jesus is always talking to Himself and his Self is always talking to him in all these critical emotional situations, like Davo pointed out.

What kind of sense can a person make of the Garden of Gethsemane if there is no distinction of personality/personhood between the Father and the Son?

But as I said before, everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I’d rather not debate it any further, so, having said all that want to say about it, “Peace, out, y’all.”

#220

Davo, Jesus says this in John 8:58 “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Matthew 4:4 “Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.”
Mark 13:31 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but MY words will by no means pass away.”
When Jesus speaks, He says, I say to you, not “Thus sayeth the Lord”, or “The Father says”, or “We say”. If the statement “I and the Father are one.” was meant to convey a unity of persons rather than one and the same person, I think that there would be a lot more verses using “we” ,“us”, “them” or “they”.
According to the Bible, a voice came from heaven and said “You are My beloved Son, in You I am well pleased.” I have to wonder about this. If God were able to speak from heaven in a voice that everyone standing around are able to hear, then I suppose there would not be a need for anyone else to speak for Him.