LLC… how does your position massage away this text? Which or whose God and Father is involved here given your position gives “God” status ALONE to Jesus himself?
Yes, that sentence occured to me also, Davo.
Jesus has a God. Is Jesus’ God another divine Person? Or is Jesus his own God? Was Jesus about to ascend to Himself?
Indeed… and I can’t see how LLC’s view logically resonates when the veracity of texts are brought into question and seemingly dismissed by the likes of “I have to wonder about this.” Is it reasonable to advocate for something (in part) akin to Sabellianism simply by disparaging verses that don’t gel with one’s position?
The “I am” of Jn 8:58 is a simple phrase of self-identification… as used in this text <ἐγὼ εἰμί> egō eimi is NOT a name, nor is its natural use here meant to convey historical or actual existence. Self-identification is its sole function, as can also be seen here…
I might also point out an important note… the final “he” is added for our English reading and is NOT in the Greek text.
Davo, from what I understand, I AM, is the name of the one and only God. Exodus 3:14 says this: “And God said to Moses " I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel,’ I AM has sent me to you.’”
Isaiah 45:6 " I am the Lord and there is no other."
True, I AM is not a name but when Jesus said “Before Abraham was, I AM.”, the Jewish people knew exactly what Jesus was saying. He was basically stating that He is the one and only God who exists; that He is existence itself and He is the Supreme Being by which everything else exists.
There is NO argument on this… BUT that’s NOT Jesus’ point nor CLAIM here in Jn 8:58!
That in itself should make it CLEAR that Yahweh ALONE is God!
True…
**False… **Jesus was indicating that HE “Jesus” (Joshua = deliverer/saviour) was Israel’s long promised Messiah… the great prophet to come; greater than Abraham and all those following him (vs. 53).
IF Jesus was claiming the identity of God-ship, and he wasn’t, he would have said… “I AM THE GOD” <Ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ θεὸς> Egō eimi O Theos – he didn’t!
Now before you jump to your next evasion PLEASE go back and answer (as I have answered your points) the following which thus far you have not…
Do you think God or Jesus really cares whether you split hairs over this? If these guys are great as we think they are (Jesus and God) then I have no doubt that they could not care any less about how we regard them. A supremely powerful being who knows he is powerful doesn’t need someone to acknowledge said power. That isn’t to say that I think the debate is wrong, but I don’t think anyone needs to justify how they think of Jesus, whether he is God, a lesser God or just a man.
This is why I abhor the idea we were created to glorify God. As if he needed us to increase his glory? That is silly non-sense. If God created us, it is because He is love and love wants to share, not because he wants to extract glory and praise from us. How vain…
Since I am a Christian Inclusivist (Positions for the Lost), I’m less concerned about folks splitting hairs here - on Trinity/Non-trinity issues. But I did find an interesting article today, in the Protestant site Patheos:
Is Trinity “Useless”? Hear this Theologian Out
[size=150]I couldn’t agree more Gabe.[/size]
Davo, From what I understand when speaking of the Lord, the people of Israel are referring to God, as in Genesis 24:3 “and I will make you swear by the Lord, the God of heaven and the God of earth”, or Psalm 39:7 ““And now Lord, what do I wait for? My hope is in You.”, and Psalm 40:5"Many O Lord my God, are your wonderful works.”
Luke 1:76 says this in reference to the coming of Jesus, “and you child(John the Baptist) will be called the prophet of the Highest; for you will go before the Lord to prepare His ways.”
As for Jesus saying I AM, it is understood that I AM is THE GOD.
Believe it or not, I do agree that Jesus is the Son, but as I am not a very fast typist, I must run, so I will get back with you a little later. 
If “P” is false I will be sad. I do not wish to be sad therefore “P” is true. If you say “P” is false, I will get mad, because I don’t want to be sad, therefore, you must die, or at the very least be exiled, Cuz you made me mad when you made me sad and thats bad. 
I’m not glad that you’re a sad lad; I’m a grad of the sad lad cad-re; so is Chad, I would maintain. 
Yes, it is understood by those who wish to identify Jesus as the one-and-only Almighty God . But it was not understood thus by the Christians of the first two centuries. Nor was it understood by Jesus Himself, who addressed the Father in prayer as “the only true God” (John 17:3)
The words for “I am” in the New Testament are “ἐγω εἰμι” (egō ēmē). Some pronounce it egō āmē". The meaning is “I, I am” with an emphasis on the first “I”.
There are 47 occurrences of the expression in the New Testament. Here are just 10 of them. Ask yourself if Jesus, or the person using the expression was declaring Himself to be the “Great I AM.”
Matthew 14:27 But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Take heart; ἐγω εἰμι (it is I) Do not be afraid.”
Luke 1:19 And the angel answered him, “ἐγω εἰμι (I am) Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God…
Luke 22:70 So they all said, “Are you the Son of God, then?” And he said to them, “You say that ἐγω εἰμι (I am).”
John 6:35 Jesus said to them, “ἐγω εἰμι (I am) the bread of life…"
John 10:7 So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, ἐγω εἰμι (I am) the door of the sheep.
John 10:11 ἐγω εἰμι (I am) the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
Acts 10:21 And Peter went down to the men and said, “ἐγω εἰμι (I am) the one you are looking for.
Acts 18:10 …for ἐγω εἰμι (I am) with you …
Acts 22:3 “ἐγω εἰμι (I am) a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia…
Acts 26:15 And I said, ‘Who are you, Sir?’ And the Lord said, ‘ἐγω εἰμι (I am) Jesus whom you are persecuting.
Davo, for me, Jesus was both the Father and the Son, the Son indicating that He was in human form. This is like saying water in liquid form is water, whereas water in frozen form is ice, and in gaseous form it is steam. The way I see it, God Himself is the only one capable of being a perfectly perfect true man. All the rest of us err and fall short. Some of the reasons why I believe that God came to earth are as follows:
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As any good Father would do, to raise His sons(man) up properly and show us the way we should go. Although we can never be the perfectly perfect Son(man) that Jesus the Father was, I don’t really think He expects us to. He was showing us how to be righteous. There is a difference. Righteousness includes forgiveness and love. This we can do and is what I believe makes us perfect in God’s eyes.
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To rebuild the Kingdom of God on earth, teaching us to be princes and rulers so that the promise He made in the beginning may be fulfilled. Genesis 1:27-28 "“So God created man in His own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female He created them. Then God blessed them, and God said to them, 'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it, have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” Also Mark 5:5 “The meek shall inherit the earth.”
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No matter how hard we try, we can never fully explain God. I think Jesus was God saying “This is Me, God, plain and simple. Follow Me.” Now everyone from the greatest to the least of us are able to comprehend God and what it is that He expects from us.
4)Throughout history, men have made up and believed in all sorts of imaginary gods in the heavens above. There is only one that has ever showed up in person to prove that He exists and that what the prophets and the Psalms have said about Him is true.
Paidion, I still think Jesus was saying He is I AM as in the one and only God. Genesis 26:24 says this:" I am the God of your father Abraham."
Genesis 17:1 “The Lord appeared to Abram and said to him " I am Almighty God, walk before Me and be blameless.”
Exodus 3:15 " Moreover God said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: 'The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This (I AM) is My name forever.”
I would say that God was Abraham’s Father before Abraham was the father of many nations.
After Jesus made the statement, the Jews were going to stone Him for blasphemy. A few chapters later(John 10:33) they say “You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
I don’t believe that Jesus ever felt that God had forsaken Him. As Matthew 26: 53 says “Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?” God is the only one that remains true to His Word. The Israelites may have believed that it was God who was forsaking them whenever things went south, but the truth is God is not the one who forsakes. He proved this by coming to earth to save the remnants of what would have been a prosperous nation had the people remained true to God. If Jesus felt forsaken by God, where does that leave us, and would this be true: " Ye thou I walk through the valley of shadows, I shall fear no evil, for thou art with me, thy rod and thy staff comfort me."
I believe this verse is either being misunderstood or mistranslated.
I think Jesus FELT that God had forsaken Him, or He wouldn’t have cried out, “Why have You forsaken me?”
But in fact God had NOT forsaken Him.
Hebrews 5:7 In the days of his flesh, Jesus offered up prayers and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to him who was able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverence.
Jesus’ prayers were answered. God DID save Him from the death that He underwent, by raising Him to life!
Eaglesway is right, LLC. Jesus cried out in the Syro-Chaldaic language. When the bystanders heard the word “Eloi” they thought He was addressing Elijah, the the word “Eloi” in Syro-Chaldaic means “God” (as Matthew himself wrote).
Paidion, John 11:25-26 says this: “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” If Jesus felt God had forsaken Him, then I would say that He did not have faith in His own words.
Deuteronomy 31:6 says this: “Be strong and of good courage, do not fear or be afraid of them; for the Lord your God, He is the One who goes with you. He will not leave you nor forsake you.”
OR
… mankind is confronted with a God who is greater, more majestic, and highest of high whose gracious acts defy the imagination and demand our highest praise, complete devotion, and pure worship. That God the Son would leave his Heavenly throne and suffer and die as a sacrifice of atonement for our sin is totally unthinkable and further that our own hands are stained with the guilt of his death, hating very God in our unregenerate human natures. Mankind’s total existence and meaning is utterly worthless apart from repentance at the feet of Christ and then to be raised to sit in Heaven with him. For Jesus, the God-man, has been lifted up to reign on Heaven’s throne and even seat us with him! Incredible! So to even suggest that Jesus did not have faith in his Father God is sacrilege of the most vile and exposes utter ignorance of the beauty of the Godhead’s demonstration of grace at the cross. For Christ demonstrated the greatest faith of all, obeying the Father, to the greatest degree of anyone ever. For what does it actually mean for God the Son to willingly and obediently die on a cross, to be made sin, in the presence of God the Father? God poured out his heart of grace in fullest measure for us in that single historic act. While the unbelieving look at Christ and see a spectacle that they do not understand, the believing see the most amazing display of grace that transforms hearts at the deepest level. For Jesus is not a spectacle, but he made a public spectacle of Satan at the cross, Colossians 2:15.
I don’t understand, LLC. Please expand your thoughts. How does your statement above follow from your quote of Christ’s words?
Paidion, John 8:29 says this: " The Father has not left Me alone for I always do those things which please Him." Again John 16:32 “Indeed the hour is coming, yes, has now come, that you will be scattered, each to his own, and will leave Me alone. And yet I am not alone because the Father is with Me.” From what I understand, forsake means to abandon or desert. So, it does not make sense to me for Jesus to be asking God, ‘Why have you abandoned Me?’. The only ones I see doing any abandoning in this case is man forsaking God. Matthew 26: 56 “Then all the disciples forsook Him and fled.”
You mentioned Hebrews 5:7 in which Jesus offers up prayers and supplications to Him who is able to save him from death. According to John 11:25-26, Jesus is the resurrection and the life, the one that saves from death.