The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Wow, so what do you really believe? ...Statement of Faith

Evangelical Universalism Arguments for Evangelical Universalism
#241

I see it this way. Jesus was born as fully human. He retained none of his divine attributes, but divested Himself of them and became a true human:

He could do no miracles on his own (I do NOTHING of myself—John 8:28). The Father who dwelt within Him did the miracles through Him. Being fully human, He had the emotions of a true human being. When faced with torture and death, He FELT as if the Father had forsaken Him. Of course the Father hadn’t forsaken Him, but brought Him out of death by raising Him from the dead.

#242

Paidion, I still can’t see it. :confused: Jesus knew without a doubt that He was to be resurrected. He speaks about it all the time. Scripture also says that He was faithful and obedient unto death. I think knowing God never forsakes is what gave Jesus the courage to go through all that he did and see it through to the end. And as you know, I believe that Jesus was God remaining true to His own word

#243

That’s all right. I am not trying to persuade you to my position—just trying to express that position.

There are many factors in the way people interpret the words of the writers of the New Testament: How one is taught as a child, what they were taught in the church they attended, the church they are attending now, that which they heard on radio or television broadcasts, their own studies of Scripture in the light of these teachings, etc.

If we are learners of Christ, trying to follow the teachings of the Altogether Lovely One, and drawing on His enabling grace, He will continue to work with us. Eventually we will all be brought to the particular dwelling place that He has prepared for us in His Body (John 14), and will be in complete harmony with Him and the rest of the Body.

#244

Thanks Paidion, you are so right and no matter our differences in opinion, I consider you to be very knowledgeable and wise! :wink: :slight_smile:

#245

One last note on the verse “My God, My God why have you forsaken Me?”. As I believe Jesus was not speaking to the Father in this case since we know that God does not forsake, Psalm 82: 6 says this: "I said “You are gods, and are all sons of the Most High.” Also in John 10:34 Jesus says "Is it not written in your law, “I said, you are gods?” I would say that Jesus was speaking to the sons of Israel, and the verse should read “My god, My god why have you forsaken Me.”

#246

I like your novel approach, but I think it’s completely off-base. :smiley: The basis for Jesus’ words was David’s cry of desperation to Yahweh, NOT “the sons of Israel”.

#247

Why all the verbal gymnastics to reject the Trinity? Our is not anti-orthodoxy, but instead what does the Bible teach.

#248

With all respect, Jeff, the verbal gymnastics are mainly from those attempting to conjure up a trin theology. You must already know this - you’re a smart guy and have read the tortuous logic-chopping surrounding some of the early church councils, producing creeds with terminology that noone really understands - or if they do, it’s well-nigh impossible for them to explain it to the normal believer.
I believe the Biblical accounts are clear, wonderful, and understandable: there is one mediator between God and man - the man Jesus Christ.

But there will be no settling of the matter in a paragraph on a forum - or in any other medium, if history be our guide.

#249

You quote Chesterton and seem to respect him. He said…

#250

The apostle Paul had it right, in 1 Corinthians 8:6 — one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ.

… for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

The concept of God being a Trinity is never found in the writings of Paul. It is also the case that well over 95% of New Testament instances of the word “God” refer to the Father alone. This is not to say that Jesus, being the only-begotten Son of God is not divine. But He Himself addressed the Father in prayer as “the only true God.” (John 17:3). If God were a Trinity, a compound Being, then Jesus would have prayed, "This is eternal life, that they may know You and Me and the Holy Spirit, all of which comprise the only true God. But instead, He prayed:

This is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

With that little conjunction “and” He identified Himself as someone OTHER THAN “the only true God.”

#251

The apostle Paul had it right, in 1 Corinthians 8:6 — one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ.

… for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

The concept of God being a Trinity is never found in the writings of Paul. It is also the case that well over 95% of New Testament instances of the word “God” refer to the Father alone. This is not to say that Jesus, being the only-begotten Son of God is not divine. But He Himself addressed the Father in prayer as “the only true God.” (John 17:3). If God were a Trinity, a compound Being, then Jesus would have prayed, “This is eternal life, that they may know You and Me and the Holy Spirit, all of which comprise the only true God.” But instead, He prayed:

This is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

With that little conjunction “and” He identified Himself as someone OTHER THAN “the only true God.”

#252

Chesterton vs. Bible? As much as I like Chesterton - no contest.
In addition, that quote from Chesterton is one of the more unfortunate ones, imo. Jesus Christ shows us what God is like - not a cold remote-controller of things - but a wonderful, loving, just and wise Creator and redeemer. G.K. was guilty here of caricature.

#253

David was fully human as well as a sinner. He may have felt that God had forsaken him in his sin. However, Jesus was different. Whether one believes Jesus was God, or another divine person sent from God, He had complete faith in God’s word. According to the Bible, He WAS God’s Word. So the question would be, does God forsake His own Word or does man forsake God’s word? According to Jesus, heaven and earth may pass away but His word will never pass away.

#254

With all due respect LLC you are completely and deliberately avoiding and diverting from the point you yourself have claimed… that Jesus’ “my god my god” was addressed to “the sons of Israel” WHEN Jesus in fact in quoting David was CLEARLY and UNEQUIVOCALLY addressing the Father.

#255

Davo, I don’t believe in penal substitution, so I don’t think Jesus represented the sinner whom God was pouring out His wrath upon. I believe that He was all the Gospels say He was, the light that shines in the darkness, the true vine, the bread of life that comes down from heaven, the truth, the true shepherd that cares for the sheep etc. etc. . As John 1:1 says, He was the Word and the Word was God. However, He was rejected of men, held in low esteem, scoffed at, called a liar, spit upon, beaten, hung upon the cross and left to suffer and die. So I don’t see any reason why Jesus would be asking Himself the question, ’ God why have you forsaken Me?’ It’s plain and clear to me who was forsaking who in this case.

As a believer in God, when I look around the world and see all the evils going on, I don’t ask God why He has forsaken us because I trust in Him and know that He never forsakes. “Seek and ye shall find.” I look and wonder why we refuse to change our ways and do not follow God’s Word, especially those who claim to be Christians.

#256

Well, for 1) Jesus was NOT “asking Himself the question” and 2) Why??.. because, umm he was being crucified!
I understand your theological position, BUT that’s what it is, a ‘theological position’ BUT the text and context don’t lend themselves to that reading. You have Jesus saying to the crowd in his very best modern western vernacular… “OMG! OMG! Why have y’all forsaken me?!” << based upon what I’ve already shown… I don’t think so.

From the Greek text… “forsaken” <ἐγκατέλιπες> egkatelipes is in the 2nd Person, SINGULAR, i.e., pointing in this case to “God” whom Jesus WAS addressing. Had your scenario been in play the Greek would reflect at least 2nd or 3rd Person, PLURAL as per the likes of 2Tim 4:16 (<ἐγκατέλιπον> egkatelipon); it does not because it is not.

#257

Davo, when it comes to interpreting Greek, I am at a loss. No, I don’t believe Jesus was addressing Himself. He was addressing those who were rejecting Him. If Jesus was addressing the leaders of Israel or all those who were rejecting Him whole, then I suppose this would be singular. As John 9:22 says, “The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected(forsaken) by the elders and the chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.” According to John 8:29 Jesus does not feel like the Father has forsaken Him in any way, for He says this: “And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone.” Again in John 16:32 He says the same thing, “Indeed the hour is coming, yes has now come, that you will be scattered, each to his own, and will leave Me alone. And yet I am not alone(forsaken), because the Father is with Me.” Even His own disciples abandoned Him and left. Was it God or was it man who crucified Jesus? My questions would be, in what way did God forsake Jesus, and why would Jesus think that God had left Him?

#258

Jesus was indeed “rejected” (a completely different word from “forsaken”) by the elders etc, but God had NOT forsaken Jesus, BUT in the terror of the event such is what Jesus felt, thus his very human cry… probably not dissimilar to his anguish of soul as found in Lk 22:41-44.

Question LLC… what is the basis of your assertion that assumes Jesus’ “My God” cry equates to and is therefore the same as today’s irreligious “OMG”? << because THAT’S what you are saying.

#259

LLC, even if Jesus had been using “My God” in a profane sense, it wouldn’t make sense if He didn’t have a God (being God Himself).

But according to the apostle Paul, Jesus does have a God—the Father:

I do not cease to give thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of him… (Ephesians 1:17, 18 ESV)

#260

Davo, According to the dictionary forsaken means just that, rejected, abandoned, cast aside, deserted, disowned, turned one’s back on, etc. etc. God did not do any of these things. He was not the one who crucified Jesus. According to John 14:28, Jesus was going to the Father.
I don’t see how His cry of anguish would be considered irreligious whether He was addressing God or the people of Israel. There are many verses in the Bible where God tells His people that they have forsaken Him, ( Deut 28:20, Deut 29:25, Judges 10:13, 1 Kgs 11:33, 1Kgs 19:10, 2Kgs 22:17, Jer 9:13, Jer 5:19, 2Chron 12:5 …the list goes on and on).
As the Bible says, “God so loved the world”. If this is true, then I think that the anguish Jesus felt was in the fact that His own creation rejected Him. I don’t know if you have any children, but when my kids say mean things to me, it feels like my heart has been ripped out.