The Evangelical Universalist Forum

Wrath: God’s motivation for UR, not ECT

Evangelical Universalism Arguments for Evangelical Universalism
#1

With so many writers/thinkers weighing in on Rob Bell’s new book (I’m reading an awful lot of these reviews and essays!) it’s providing a good chance to be reminded just how weak so many of the arguments against Universalism actually are.

One common assertion argues for hell (ECT) – or at least annihilation – on the basis of God’s wrath against sin. God hates sin therefore is obligated to rid the universe of it. A Holy God is incompatible with sin. God doesn’t like, or mix with, or is offended by, sin and so it’s in His very nature to experience what we call “wrath” towards it. And God’s experience of wrath leads to His actions which are said to be evidence of His wrath.

But then a curious thing happens… All that wrath gets credited for compelling God to do some pretty violent and negative and frankly troubling things. Things like ECT. It’s as if we just have to deal with what seems to be so horrific at the hand of a “loving” God because, well, God really had no choice because, well, His wrath kinda made Him do it. As if wrath compels the “dark” side of God and we’re trained to paper it over with talk of justice and love.

Really??

If wrath properly describes God’s response and attitude toward sin, (UR very much agrees with this) and this compels His insistence on being rid of sin, (UR very much agrees with this too) why should there be this insistence that the only way of being rid of sin is via the negative, violent, cruel and tyrannical means of ECT or annihilation?

Were God to rid the Universe of sin via a route which transforms sinners into redeemed, via a path which heal’s sinners of the delusions about truth and reality that have held them captive to sin, via an experience which lays bare truths about His goodness and holiness that had been so long resisted, does that not accomplish the same thing?

Well of course it does and this is precisely the path that we Universalists take. Sin is eradicated just as completely and thoroughly if God accomplishes this by winning each and every sinner back to trust in Him as if He commits ECT or annihilation. In fact I’m fairly certain ECT and annihilation would not rid the Universe of sin at all; rather it would enshrine it as some macabre memorial of the damned and of God’s impotence to save them. Hardly the environment of sinless happiness and blessedness that God seems to promise.

I’m thinking then that God’s wrath vs sin is not to be feared but to be welcomed. For this response to do whatever is necessary to save is thereby compelled.

TotalVictory
Bobx3

#2

Amen to this, and the rest of the post as well!

“The Dark side of God” I like that one! Thankfully, we know that God is Light and doesn’t have a dark side! :wink:

Sonia

#3

I’ve been feeling so overwhelmed, lately, with how much darkness people seem to willingly embrace in their theology. And how it’s exactly as you say, Bob, that it’s even considered justice and love. I guess it’s not surprising and I, too, at one time believed like them. As I’ve read Talbott and George MacDonald’s sermons I’ve come to really appreciate the character of God and that in Him there is no darkness at all. I plan to really instill this in my children so that when something wrongheaded, even evil, comes their way they will have to reject it. It’s also making so much sense to me, in light of God’s character/dislike of sin, that he is actually doing much more than I’d ever imagined to separate us from it and his wrath is for a purpose, not just to torture us forever. That’s a pretty big leap for most people I know and, quite frankly, I’m tired of trying to prove it, for now. I just want, for a while,to revel in how wonderful it is, if even there are only a few of us that can appreciate it. I want to live, knowing the truth, giving it to my children, and being sensitive to others, but not worrying what they will think.

#4

Thank you, Bob. This expresses very well something that’s stirred in my mind for awhile.

It’s like that last needed bit to nail it all down into a coherent theology. I just want to cry out and tell the whole world. I really need to be able to make videos but for some reason my mic isn’t working. Perhaps this is something I need to pray through; every time I attempt to make a difference something pops up as a barrier.

#5

Brilliant post TotalVictory!

Even more so (which you go on to say yourself) :sunglasses:

#6

It’s interesting that scripture says that God’s wrath only lasts a day, a moment, but his love endures forever. ECT affirms just the opposite for some/most of humanity, that God’s love is only a vapor (this life) but his wrath lasts forever (out-a-site).

#7

Thanks, TV. I just heard George MacDonald’s “Justice” sermon today (for the first time!), and I got a similar message from that: God’s wrath really only makes sense if it has a merciful purpose. God’s forgiveness, on the other hand (or in the same hand!), makes sense only if it’s just. The most “just” thing for God to do is to get rid of sin once and for all, and his “wrath” is the way that happens. Therefore, it is something to be embraced in our lives–not just to be thankful that Jesus by his sacrifice somehow persuaded God to “get off our backs with that whole wrath thing” or whatever. (Obviously my paraphrase) :stuck_out_tongue:

Good word, TV! I love it.

#8

Yes Buddy I really do think this is the sad reality and I think there’s ample evidence all the time…
For example, just got my copy of Aprils Christianity Today and the “Meditation Essay” is titled A BEAUTIFUL ANGER.
Now truth is I’ve been drawn in by this sort of title before so have grown skeptical. I want to like the idea, but I’d better read it first. I mean this brief essay/post (above) intends to suggest God’s wrath must be seen in it’s positive light because that is what motivates God to act and save the worst of we sinners in HIs march towards destroying sin.

And the author says some moving things and loves the deep and vague mysterious aspects of God’s stirring power and is clearly impacted deeply by the wonder of it all. But there is an incredible imprecision to her words and I’m reading and I’m betting I know exactly where she’s going! And sure enough there comes a time when God just can’t stand it any long and so is justified in lashing out in the punitive holiness of his anger (if you call something “holy” that means it’s ok to do seems to be the rule…) and who could blame him? “Even our callused hearts recognize the injustice of unpunished crime.” (So lets just beat the livin’ snot out of this evil sinner who deserves it and thereby satisfy “justice”… Nice…) And then time comes when she comes clean: “Make no mistake: His forbearance will surely come to a terrifying end.” I’m almost certain she means ECT. But not to worry, for God is, after all, Love…

Same tired and sad story of excusing God’s heinous resort to violence to find final resolution to sin.
I would urge you to read this essay and decide if I’m over-reacting here!
I’m growing quite weary of this insipid rhetoric to obscure what I find to be a horrific God…

TotalVictory
Bobx3

#9

TV, I think that captures well how I’ve been feeling. I was telling Gene tonight that there must be some truth to the words in the song, “Open the Eyes of My Heart, Lord.” Maybe if we aren’t looking with the right eyes, our heart, we’ll miss what God is all about?

#10

I’ve given some thought to “the wrath of God against the sons of disobedience”

I’ll make this hypothetical but its really quite personal. So you have a guy who believes PSA and he thinks that he is not subject to God’s wrath. He has a “get out of wrath free” card from saying that sinner’s prayer, identifying himself as a “Christian”, and attending church. His “faith” doesn’t stop him from using porn, then strip clubs, then having an affair. He can preach “TURN OR BURN” to other people, trying to convince them to put on the sheepskin he has so they will be safe from God’s wrath.

Is he really safe from God’s wrath?
I don’t believe it. And it’s part of the reason I wound up here. The evangelical church harbors a whole lot of complacent uncrucified flesh.

The whole idea of God’s wrath as corrective/remedial is probably much easier to understand for those who have had healthy parenting. My dad’s wrath was not just and remedial. It was harsh and abusive which is probably why it was not too hard for me to be stuck so long thinking GOD resembled my father.

I think its my own husband in trying to defend the traditional view of ECT who said “the ones going to hell aren’t God’s children. John 1 says you have to receive Christ and believe in him to become a child of God”. Strikes me as inconsistent. How then can he think he’s not under “the wrath of God against the SONS of disobedience”?

Because of what things?

I don’t believe that the prodigal son is going to be tormented eternally in hell, but he most certainly will experience some corrective/remedial wrath in the form of consequences for his behavior.

#11

Gem,

You have an interesting post. I’ve been studying along in a similair vein on the idea of what it means to be saved and a child of God. But I plan to post another thread about in a day or so. One of the verses I noticed that has been used by evangelical Christians (including myself) particularly in witnessing to people is John 1:12:

*“But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:” *

In the first place, what does it mean to “receive him”? Many believe that it has to do with “accepting Christ” or “receiving Christ” as their Savior. But look at the context of the passage, especially vs 11,

*“He came unto his own, and his own received him not.” *

“His own” refers to the fact that Jesus was born a Jew and is a part if the nation of Israel. “Received him not” refers to the fact that 'his own" people ultimately rejected Him as the “Holy One” the Messiah.

To “receive Him” in vs 12, therefore, means to believe that Jesus is the Messiah and welcome Him with open arms in anticipation of establishing the Kingdom of God. But the other thing to notice is that with this He gives ‘them’ (those who receive Him) the power to become the sons of God.

So the question is, "How does one become a ‘son of God’’?

“Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.” - Matthew 5:9

"“But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.” - Luke 6:35"

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God], they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God].
" - Romans 8:14-18

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.Do all things without murmurings and disputings: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world; - Phil 2:12-15

*“Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.” *

“He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” - Rev 21:7-8

Now it seems to me that in the verses above there is a progression toward becoming a son of God. There is an expectation of what we need to do before that realization, not just “receiving Christ as Savior”. There seems to be more to it than that.

Salvation is a Process
#12

Amen to all these posts, and thanks! I just skimmed but hope to have time to read better later.

Dondi, I’ve been thinking on the same track. I like the way you’re working it out.

Sonia

#13

That’s a heck of a way to put it! That really got my attention.

And Dondi, I sure can relate to your diagnosis, as well, that placing our faith in Jesus is much more than a passive acceptance. I’ve, too, really struggled with PSA and am struck at just how much God really wants to deal with our sin, not just overlook it. And that wrath really is for the disobedient and somehow, by placing our faith in Jesus to embrace His values, there is a real righteousness in us.

Our faith really results in not living according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. We are no longer hostile toward God, care to follow the law of love, enslave ourselves to God, and in this process cease to be the disobedient ones. It’s all because of His grace/efforts/faithfulness to draw us, transform us, and enable us -through the work of His Spirit, so that we do the good works he intends for us to do.

#14

I was thinking about this idea that God PUNISHED the innocent Jesus by pouring out His wrath on Him instead of on me, and there’s another reason it doesn’t sit right. Survivor’s guilt. My friend’s son has PTSD from Iraq when a bomb killed a friend standing a few feet away from him. My brother got punished with a fatherly beating when we broke the car windshield. I got off the hook, and I regret that to this day. The guilt of the survivor who knows that “it should have been me” is not Good News that sets me free. It’s torment.

How is there any appeal to thinking that Father God PUNISHED Jesus instead of me?

I know that some people want a scapegoat and will blame anyone rather than acknowledge their own evil. Perhaps people like that won’t be bothered at having someone completely innocent and good PUNISHED in their place?