The Evangelical Universalist Forum

"...you are not part of my flock." Jn 10:26

A friend of mine (calvinist) brought up this passage to me. She’s arguing that there are people who are not of the flock of God, thus God will not seek them, and does not intend to save them.

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.”

Does anyone have thoughts on this? I’ll come back later with my response.

Sonia

My Calvinist uncle asked me the same question a few weeks ago.

Obviously a lot more can be said :slight_smile:

To be part of the flock you have to be listening and following. So it’s not really surprising that Jesus would say they aren’t part of the flock. Jesus cites the benefit of being one of the flock - he gives eternal life and no one can snatch them out of his hand. Seems like Jesus may be just telling them that they don’t get it, but there is great benefit in coming to him. Is Jesus really saying that there are some people that God will not seek out? Or is that being read into the text? Can’t wait to hear your explanation, Sonia!

Was reading the part John 10:10, “The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy…” Supposedly you can’t steal the sheep, snatch the ones in God’s hands, and the remaining ones, that aren’t selected, don’t have to be stolen because they are a free gift? :unamused: Is the point that God is a good shepherd to some and a hired hand to othesr? I can’t imagine this is the point.

Ultimately, I think the point here has to be that yes, you could understand this passage as meaning that some sheep don’t belong to God. However, in view of the** entire** witness of scripture, we have ample reason to interpret it more along the lines of: “You’re not currently (or yet) a part of My flock.” And it may be a very long time before such as the Pharisees who hated Jesus as they did will be able to lay down their pride and become obedient members of His flock.

If the rest of scripture supported the idea that God is willing to relinquish His own to annihilation or ECT, then that would be good cause to justify interpreting this scripture as meaning that some do not belong to Him. But as the scriptures tell us just the opposite, this scripture should logically be interpreted as a temporary situation, in force at the time and in the people to whom Jesus was speaking.

Thanks for the comments so far! Amy, I don’t have anything brilliant – just along the lines Alex said, that because some are not of His flock at present, does not exclude them from being “future flock.” :sunglasses: I have some scripture to back that, the thing particularly coming to mind is where in Hosea he says something along the lines of, “Where it was said ‘you are not my people’, it will be said, ‘they are sons of the living God’.”

I’ll take another look at the passage and context and see if anything fresh jumps out before I write up my reply. Thanks for the feedback so far, and please keep it coming if you think of anything else!

Sonia

At the time of Jesus saying that, there was a man named Saul who was not of His flock either. That scripture applied to Saul at the time Jesus spoke it…Saul, who would later become part of that same flock, who would be in Jesus’ hand never to be snatched out, was at the time NOT in his hand, under his wrath, a Pharisee, a son of the devil.
Chris

Excellent point, Chris!

I will call those not my people, my people.

Hosea! Why didn’t I think of that?! I suppose a Calvinist will say about those not my people, they were his people because he decided to make them his people, but there are still some people that will never be his people? Oh my, that is confusing. Good point, however, that it does seem like some of the sheep, like Paul, really didn’t hear his voice, at first.

The context in both Hosea and Romans is clearly talking about the Gentiles. It’s not necessarily talking about people who aren’t of the flock/elect. So this would not really address the verse or Calvinism. And a Calvinist would say that Paul was always of the flock.

Hosea 1:10 is talking about Israel being “as the sand of the sea”. It then speaks of the two (Judah and Israel) being gathered together. Hosea is speaking specifically about Israel and Judah. However, in Romans, Paul quotes this in speaking to the “Romans”. Paul says, " . . . even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?".
In Romans 9:6-8, I believe is the answer. It seems he is speaking about the “seed”. The children of the promise counted as seed. Because, not all that are Israel are of Israel.
In Romans, Paul tries to show how belief in the Messiah is rooted in Judaism, but is a faith for all humanity.

Would you explain to me how you perceive Hosea to be speaking of the Gentiles? I’m not sure how you’re getting that.

Thanks,
Sonia

there are some people that feel that the house of Israel became gentiles after being divorced from God.

Perhaps “clearly” was too strong? I was speaking as a Calvinist from an Arminian (soft-universalist) perspective, so I probably didn’t make much sense at all! And perhaps I am wrong in my reading anyway, but I followed the (Arminian) argument of Paul back to Hosea. I love Romans and couldn’t resist including some contextual information below because I think it is important to recognize what (I think) Paul is saying about the Jews and the Gentiles in his broader epistle to the Romans. And for me, it sheds light on what I think Hosea meant.

Paul is defending three propositions (from preceding chapters) that all (all individuals, both Jew and Gentile) are fallen, that none can be justified by Torah, and that all can be justified by faith in the Christ. This contrasts with the presumably popular belief that the Jews were saved by the works of Torah and by their descent from Abraham. If Paul’s propositions were true it would seem (subjectively for those Jews at least) that the Word of God had failed them (9:6). So Romans 9 is thus addressing this concern by dismantling the notion that the Jews were ever saved by their lineage.

Paul begins in verse six by noting that Ishmael, as a descendent of Abraham (and indeed the firstborn!) would be heir to the covenant blessings if it were given by seed. But covenantal blessings are not given by seed, but by promise (9:8). Thus Paul can say, “they are not all Israel [spiritual and of promise] who are of Israel [national and of seed]”. The promises to Abraham do not extend to his every blood-descendent, as the examples of Ishmael shows (although he is still blessed in Isaac). But lest one object that Ishmael was illegitimate, Paul continues to Jacob and Esau who were twins! One was elected that God’s purpose would be fulfilled, while the other would serve his younger brother. But just as Isaac and Ishmael referred to nations, so does Jacob and Esau (Israel and Edom), an argument supported by Paul’s use of quotations; Genesis 25:23: “(Two nations are in your womb, two peoples shall be separated from your body; one people shall be stronger than the other,) and the older shall serve the younger” and Malachi 1:2-3. (Incidentally, Paul’s use of the Malachian verse is actually a criticism of the haughty Jews, not of the Edomites – God loved Israel more, and yet they were at present (just as in Malachi’s time) under the judgement of God!)

This is largely what Paul meant with his comments on Pharaoh and the Clay (and says very little of any Calvinist individual predestination in my view). But all in all, Paul is noting that the Jews have absolutely no reason to be haughty about their lineage, works and sole inheritance of Yahweh’s blessings. They just didn’t get this because they were radical exclusivists. Just like Jonah. They had stumbled over the stumbling stone; the universal grace in Christ (offered to all; but accepted by all?). For God delivers the covenantal blessings by gracious promise alone through faith (9:32). The Hosean verse, in Romans at least, speaks of Yahweh calling people whom the Jews did not call Yahweh’s people; whom the Jews thought were outside of God’s love and blessings – the Gentiles.

If we follow this back to Hosea, we find that Hosea says much the same thing. He speaks of an increase of Yahweh’s favoured people (2:14-23), amidst the condemnation of an unfaithful Israel (2:3-13). Who else could Hosea be speaking of but those outside of God’s election in national Israel? It seems to me that while a restored remnant of national Israel would remain (the Jewish Christians), from this Yahweh would multiply to an innumerable amount the spiritual Israel (the Jewish and Gentile Christians). I think, this is the whole point of Hosea: that Yahweh loves the Hebrew nation despite their wickedness, will restore them and work to bring about even greater blessings for them and the Gentiles. Yahweh is just that amazing! (skin tingles).

So from a Calvinist perspective, the election of the flock does not directly relate to the acceptance of Gentiles (those who were not previously considered Yahweh’s people). Therefore, the Gentiles and Jews are merely two national categories of which the Elect may now fall within. Of course, Gentile-Jews may have been the elect since before Christ, but I think Paul is saying that they are now accepted outside of much Jewish religiosity (circumcision, animal sacrifice, lettered Torah, and so forth).

My conclusion may have totally unraveled because I have worked from an Arminian reading of Romans 9 to get a Calvinist explanation. It’s a Frankenstein Calv-minian view. And to be honest, I find it difficult working out what the Hebrew prophets actually mean most of the time, so I wholly concede I’m probably wrong on this! But I really welcome your thoughts and critique.

Godspeed,
Andrew

But Paul wasn’t always of the flock. Before he fell off that horse he was a persecutor of Christ (“Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”), the chief of sinners, by nature an object of wrath. You can speak philosophically about predestination and such, but in this world, within the sphere of time we have to make a commitment to Jesus Christ and repent. There was a day on the planet where Paul came into the kingdom of God and the day that Jesus was speaking those words he was not yet in the kingdom, not yet one of his sheep.

I agree. But a Calvinist (as far as I understand) would not. For a Calvinist, Paul was predestined at the beginning of time to be an object of honour. I don’t know whether that means he was ever an object of wrath or not.

Well, just blow my whole argument to smithereens, why don’t you!! :smiling_imp: :smiling_imp:

Thanks Andrew! Very nice job with that! I’m not sure yet that I entirely agree, but I’ll certainly be spending some time on this to understand it better. :sunglasses:

Sonia

I should say, regarding this, I don’t expect to convince my Calvinist friend by argument. The most I would hope to achieve – though there is slim chance of it – is to convince her that, rather than abandoning scripture to follow a false teaching, I am merely understanding it in a different but valid way.

My main concern in dealing with objections like this is to show how the passage does not need to be interpreted in the way they understand it; that there are valid ways to understand the passage which shed a different light on the meaning.

I don’t think UR, or Calvinism or any other system can be “proven” in a purely objective, logical way, so that everyone must acknowledge its truth. And given that, we must allow space for others to have their convictions about what is truth. I’m only fighting for room for the validity of perspective which I find most true to scripture. And the main reason I think it’s important to do so is that there are people out there who would like to be able to believe better things about God than Calvinism and Arminianism offer, but have not been able to understand how to do so from scripture.

So the way the Hosea passage relates to this verse, as I see it, is that it is an example of a place where God has called some “not my people” and said, “I will show them no mercy” but that is not the end of the story. Later He calls them, “My people” and does have mercy on them. In the passage in John, Jesus says “you are not my flock” however that does not mean that the situation cannot change later, and Hosea shows a precedent where something similar happens.

Sonia

I don’t necessarily agree either! I personally believe that Yahweh elects the foreknown from within the two categories of Jew and Gentile. Those elected are of spiritual Israel, the Church, the Bride and so forth and this is (from our perspective) fluid and changeable. Yes, I believe you can be in one day and out the next! Because I reject predestination in any rigid sense, I can say that Paul was not of the flock during Yeshua’s incarnation, and became so on the road to Damascus. The funniest thing about universalism is that you can use the arguments of the Arminians to break down the arguments of the Calvinists and vice versa :laughing:

I do believe that national Israel will be restored to spiritual Israel at a later date. But I don’t know whether that includes every individual. But at the moment, I do believe men may walk from the Lake of Fire and join the Bride. Whether this is guaranteed to happen to any or all, I do not know – I’m still thinking the universalist and ECT texts through :slight_smile: Though I have begun to softly espouse a universalism to my friends and family these days :smiley:

I dislike the theology of the Calvinists partly because it is as exclusivist as the Jews of Rome. A construct that so many prophets worked so hard to dismantle too! I think Jonah (my favourite book of the Hebrew scriptures since my childhood) argues against a God who does not sincerely desire the salvation of all.