"You must do nothing to come to Jesus" vs "This is what you must do now"

[LLC]

On reference 1 , Leviticus 19:17,18 make clear that “neighbor” does NOT mean a close by or ‘fellow human being;’ it specifies an “Israelite among you.”

Bob, Moses makes clear in Deut. 10:19 " Therefore love the stranger, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt."
stranger-foreigner, outsider, alien
As Paidion pointed out this law was in a lot of other religions as well.
The fact that they weren’t doing this was to their own fault.

On 2 , Jews did not interpret killing blasphemers as “murder.” The Law demanded it, and they can perceive killing a false prophet as righteous (much less that they knew killing Jesus was evil)

As I said before, the Lev. law was false from the beginning. Moses recognized this and that’s why they weren’t a part of Israel and they weren’t the rulers. Yes, they knew what they were doing. As Jesus said they were a brood of vipers, cunning snakes. Cunning-skilled in deception, clever

On 3 , again, no one doubts Pharisees coveted. But that’s irrelevant to proving that they recognized killing Jesus as coveting. As Paul puts it, they were able to construe such killing as “zeal for God.”

Love means zeal, enjoyment, attachment, delight, devotion etc.etc. and that’s exactly what they were doing, loving a false god and not the God of Israel.

[Bob_Wilson]

LLC, Your responses do not refute my contentions.

On 1, no one denies the OT says to love strangers; but that doesn’t prove that Pharisees did not easily think Jesus was a false prophet who qualified for execution under God’s Law.

On 2, you essentially confirm my argument that OT Law provided a basis for them believing they knew it was justified. You just argue that Biblical Law they went by is false. I personally reject it too, but that’s irrelevant to what they believed.

On 3 & 4, I never disputed that crucifiers loved a false god. But noting that you and I recognize that does nothing to show that they knew it was wicked, nor show that Jesus does not actually say that his followers were to “love your enemies” (Mt 5:43).

In short, I don’t see how any of your observations address any actual contention here.

[Holy-Fool-P-Zombie]

As I said before, the Lev. law was false from the beginning. Moses recognized this and that’s why they weren’t a part of Israel and they weren’t the rulers. Yes, they knew what they were doing. As Jesus said they were a brood of vipers, cunning snakes. Cunning-skilled in deception, clever

What was the purpose of the Levitical Law?

[LLC]

On 1, no one denies the OT says to love strangers; but that doesn’t prove that Pharisees did not easily think Jesus was a false prophet who qualified for execution under God’s Law.

Bob, it was not God’s law. It was man’s, just as Jesus, the prophets and his apostles state. For example, the slave laws of the South did not come from God, they were the makings of men.

But noting that you and I recognize that does nothing to show that they knew it was wicked

I don’t think man lives in total darkness. If this were so, we would be like animals who devour their prey and have no knowledge of this being right or wrong. On the contrary God has given all men a “light”. We may try to hide from it, cover it up, run from it etc. but we cannot escape it.

nor show that Jesus does not actually say that his followers were to “love your enemies” (Mt 5:43).

No offense, but you and I will have to disagree. I think love is too strong of a word here. As I mentioned before, I’m not going to love someone who likes to torture, rape, and murder others. I don’t delight in them or have any warm feelings of affection for them. To me it means nothing more than what was already previously stated in the verses of the Bible. Do not hold a grudge,hate them in your heart, or seek vengeance, but wait on the Lord. And as Jesus said, in that day He will say depart from Me you workers of lawlessness.

[Bob_Wilson]

You did not show Jesus does not actually say that his followers were to “love your enemies” (Matthew 5:43).

No offense, but I will have to disagree. I think love is too strong of a word here.

LLC, You don’t appear to recognize that you repeatedly reinforce my contentions.
Here, my interpretation was that Jesus is portrayed as actually using such strong words.

When you repeatedly insist that everyone ‘knows’ what you believe you know, you seem to incorrectly assume that everyone handles texts like you do. E.g. on our central dispute, you seem to assume that the Pharisees all knew that the parts of the OT that you like are true, but that the Levitical law that they used to justify killing Jesus was bogus. But there’s no evidence for that. They actually used such texts to endorse their actions and their seared conscience.

Here, you appear to agree with my contention that the text does have Jesus commanding that you “love” your enemies, but then assume that we all know that his own word usage here is “too strong.”
But not everyone assumes that Jesus didn’t use the right words. As I’ve said, he challengingly spells out how love for evil enemies constitutes doing good toward them, and seeking their ultimate welfare.

Your points might be more effective if you’d say up front that you are not necessarily debating what the text teaches, since you see some of it as false and perverse, and others of it as using words that are wrongly too strong. Then, you could defend your conviction that your own sensibilities are superior to such texts (and I might again defend you in doing that).

[maintenanceman]

How To Live Under An Unqualified President by John Piper

Are you into the new math? “7x more likely to violently die” does not equate to a “freaking 1000% more safe.” Like Paidion, I’d add it up as around 700% less safe.

I’m not 100% sure this was for me but if so, Bob, you are not taking the BIG - Long term view of freedom in the USA as opposed to the rest of the world. The very idea of an armed citizenry was to insure that law abiding citizens were not only taking part in civic duties but were able to derail the government when and if they decided to do bad things to the citizens.

[maintenanceman]

It is possible that somehow the site put my response in a different thread. They alerted me to it and to be honest they gave me two choices and I took one. Might have been the wrong one.

Sorry if it was so. But my answer to Bob is thus the same.

[Bob_Wilson]

The very idea of an armed citizenry was to insure that citizens were able to derail the government when they decided to do bad things to the citizens.

This should be on the ‘Unqualified President’ thread., but yes, I’m familiar with the desire to be able to take on the gov’t’s armed forces and law enforcement personnel if they do bad things.

If that’s what the founders meant by having a militia, it’s too bad Rome’s gov’t didn’t have a 2nd amendment. Then the disciples might have derailed their evil attempt to crucify Jesus.

[LLC]

you seem to assume that the Pharisees all knew that the parts of the OT that you like are true, but that the Levitical law that they used to justify killing Jesus was bogus. But there’s no evidence for that.

Bob, Matthew 12:14 says, “But the Pharisees went out and conspired to kill Jesus.
Mark 3:6 Then the Pharisees went forth and began to plot with the Herodians to kill Jesus.
John 11:53 So from that day on they plotted to kill Him.
Matthew 26:4 And they conspired to arrest Jesus and kill Him covertly.”

Plot- A plan made in secret to do something illegal or harmful.
Conspire-Make secret plans to commit an unlawful or harmful act.
Covert-secretly

Again, Yes these people knew what they were doing. They knew that they were not obeying the Laws of God. Jesus was exposing them and convicting them of their sin, and so they had to do away with Him.
Do not cheat, lie, bear false witness, covet, murder etc.etc. Love others as yourself
These things are not hard to understand.

Matthew 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice faith and mercy.”
Matt. 23:25 'Woe to you scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of extortion and self-indulgence."
Matt.23:14 " Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widow’s houses, and for a pretense make long prayers."

Here, you appear to agree with my contention that the text does have Jesus commanding that you “love” your enemies, but then assume that we all know that his own word usage here is “too strong.”

It doesn’t sound like Jesus is loving these people. In fact, He seems to be cursing them here in Matt. 23:32-33 “Fill up then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?”
Matt.23:

[Bob_Wilson]

[quote=“LLC, post:324, topic:13931, full:true”]Matthew 23:23

(1) Bob, Matthew 12:14 says, “But the Pharisees went out and conspired to kill Jesus.”
These people knew what they were doing. They knew that they were not obeying the Laws of God.

(2) Matt.23:14 " Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widow’s houses."
[/quote]

It doesn’t sound like Jesus is loving these people. In fact, “Brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?” Matt.23
[/quote]

LLC, On your first argument, I see you offer no evidence here that the Pharisees recognized (“knew”) that plotting the death of one they saw as a false prophet did not fulfill the Law of God. Not any more than Paul had recognized that plotting Christians’ deaths was contrary to righteous “zeal for God.” As he spells out, such actions were “ignorant.” You underestimate how deceptive evil can be.

I think your second contention that Jesus violated his own teaching to love evil enemies reveals how you see him, but misunderstands agape. You cite how Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for their evil and strongly warned them of the painful consequences of their deeds. I would think genuine love for them would demand no less than the great risk of confronting their disastrous course and seeking to sober them about what their deep evil is sowing.

I believe Jesus reflects the nature of God which as the apostle John says, always “IS love.”

[maintenanceman]

This should be on the ‘Unqualified President’ thread., but yes, I’m familiar with the desire to be able to take on the gov’t’s armed forces and law enforcement personnel if they do bad things.

If that’s what the founders meant by having a militia, it’s too bad Rome’s gov’t didn’t have a 2nd amendment. Then the disciples might have derailed their evil attempt to crucify Jesus.

Like I said,I’m not sure the intended post ended in the intended place… But having said that and in the spirit of moving ahead, I am interested in your comment, as societies and culture advance, it is obvious that the roman citizenry could have nothing like modern day fire arms… Thus the progression of technology and your quite insightful observation is well taken. But a free people need to have a force, and the individual ownership of firearms makes them a threat to tyranny, and unfortunately for liberals, it is the second amendment that in the end messes up their program.

[LLC]

LLC, On your first argument, I see you offer no evidence here that the Pharisees recognized (“knew”) that plotting the death of one they saw as a false prophet did not fulfill the Law of God.

Do not murder.
Do not bear false witness.
Love your neighbor as yourself.
Love the stranger
If your enemy is hungry give him food and if he is thirsty give him water to drink.
Care for the poor, the sick, the fatherless and the widow
Do not take a bribe.
Do not pervert justice.
Do not oppress a stranger.
Do not hold a grudge or seek vengeance on people.
" The Lord is compassionate and gracious slow to anger and abounding in love."
“The Lord is good to all and His mercy is over all that the has made.”
“The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases, his mercies never come to an end.”

Matt. 15:3 “Why do you also disregard the commandment of God because of your tradition?
Mark 7:9 " You have disregarded the commandments of God to keep the traditions of men.”
" You neglect the more important matters of the Law such as justice, mercy and faith."
Neglect- shirk, evade, abandon,
Disregard- ignore, refuse to obey, pay no attention to

Bob, The Pharisees were not ignorant. They were not fulfilling any of the things I stated above.

I think your second contention that Jesus violated his own teaching to love evil enemies reveals how you see him, but misunderstands agape

Love- to delight in, adore, take pleasure in, admire, show reverence, glorify, enjoy.
Jesus did not hate His enemies or seek to take vengeance on them, but I don’t see Him showing any of these things towards the Pharisees and Sadducees.

[Bob_Wilson]

“I am interested in your comment, as societies advance, it is obvious that Rome’s citizenry could have nothing like modern day fire arms… Thus in the progression of technology… a free people need to have a force, and the individual ownership of firearms makes them a threat to tyranny.”

Yes, I’d comment that modern tyrants often have powerful technology, and that some individual ‘firearms’ seem unlikely to defeat their powerful armaments. Thus today we need an amendment for the universal right to own nukes to deter tyranny.

Yet I sympathize with how Trump gently praises the love letters and character of many of today’s most tyrannical thugs. After all folk like Kim and Putin also have nukes, and even our superior arsenal has difficulty safely deterring their gulags and tyranny

[Bob_Wilson]

LLC, you haven’t challenged my contention. Every scholar who sees the Pharisees as self-righteous religionists who rationalized killing Jesus as a false prophet agrees with you that they deeply violated justice. That does not show that they knew this execution was evil.

Many blind sinners “disregard” what you and I see as obviously plain. That’s why a devout Pharisee, Paul, can say that he was “ignorant” that his slaughter of Christians was not actually righteous.

Second, I argued that Jesus’ confrontations with the Pharisees’ evil, and harshly warning them of its’ consequences can be a sobering expression of love. You rebut that Jesus can’t love them, because agape love requires that Jesus “glorify” them, “admire” them, etc. I don’t know what lexicon suggests that, but it’s nonsense, and strikes me as a sentimentalist weak notion of what agape actually means.

Agape can be tough love. His command “agape your enemies” is not: we love & enjoy what they do.

[maintenanceman]

“I am interested in your comment, as societies advance, it is obvious that Rome’s citizenry could have nothing like modern day fire arms… Thus in the progression of technology… a free people need to have a force, and the individual ownership of firearms makes them a threat to tyranny.”

Yes, I’d comment that modern tyrants often have powerful technology, and that some individual ‘firearms’ seem unlikely to defeat their powerful armaments. Thus today we need an amendment for the universal right to own nukes to deter tyranny.

Yet I sympathize with how Trump gently praises the love letters and character of many of today’s most tyrannical thugs. After all folk like Kim and Putin also have nukes, and even our superior arsenal has difficulty safely deterring their gulags and tyranny

Bob, it is obvious that the second amendment is a sore spot. Let’s look for example past the Trump administration…The idea that free people will remain free is (as you will have to concede) totally effective only if the populace has a ability to have the right of stating grievance… And that can only be done by a armed people.

[Bob_Wilson]

You have to concede people will remain free only if the populace has a ability to have the right of stating grievance… And that can only be done by a armed people.

Not in my experience. People in my family have the right to state grievances, and none of them are armed. People in many European democracies have stated grievances and changed gov’ts over and over, despite not having an armed people.

Shucks, in Britain even cops seldom are armed. But trust me, their gov’t has plenty of arms to put down a violent internal insurrection, just as the U.S. military will put down any citizens militia here that tries to overthrow our gov’t.

What you may mean is that you feel that your gun is what keeps our gov’t in check, and you secure from tyranny. While I think the president is tempted to expand his powers, I don’t worry about it, nor have any inclination to shoot people over it.

[LLC]

LLC, you haven’t challenged my contention. Every scholar who sees the Pharisees as self-righteous religionists who rationalized killing Jesus as a false prophet agrees with you that they deeply violated justice. That does not show that they knew this execution was evil.

Bob, I believe have. Cunning and ignorant are two different things. If they hadn’t known that His execution was evil they wouldn’t have been plotting and conspiring in secret. If they didn’t know that they weren’t feeding the poor, executing justice taking care of the sick and the widows etc. then the fact that people were starving and sick etc.etc may have been a clue? And if they were ignorant enough to not have noticed this, Jesus informed them. So I’d say they no longer had an excuse at that point.

You rebut that Jesus can’t love them, because agape love requires that Jesus “glorify” them, “admire” them, etc

The Bible tells us to love God, which involves glorifying and admiring. You said the Bible tells us to love our enemies.

[Bob_Wilson]

You insist that Jesus does not love people, because agape love requires that Jesus “glorify” them, “admire” them, etc

The Bible tells us to love God, which involves glorifying and admiring. You said the Bible tells us to love our enemies.

I’m lost. You appear to be insisting that we are commanded to glorify evil people?? Yes, Jesus insists, “Love your enemies.” Are you claiming this meant we are required to glorify and admire evil people? Sure, we worship God. What makes you think evil people are to be worshipped like God? Does anyone (you?) seriously believe that is what Jesus’ agape command meant?? I’ve never heard such a definition of it.

You also insist that the Pharisees plotting in secret to have Jesus killed proves they knew it was evil. I find that irrational. The narrative presents Jesus as highly popular with the common people, and the Pharisees as fearful of the pushback they will face if they publicly seek his death. So of course, they strategize behind the scenes, rather than in public. This does not falsify Jesus’ insight that “they know not what they do.”

Do you similarly think that when Paul says he was “ignorant” that murdering Christians was not actually righteous, and that this is why God had mercy on him, that Paul is also deceived about such ignorance?

[LLC]

I’m lost. You appear to be insisting that we are commanded to glorify evil people?? Yes, Jesus insists, “Love your enemies.” Are you claiming this meant we are required to glorify and admire evil people? Sure, we worship God. What makes you think evil people are to be worshipped like God? Does anyone (you?) seriously believe that is what Jesus’ agape command meant?? I’ve never heard such a definition of it.

If you recall, I said loving your enemies means

Do not hold a grudge, hate them in your heart, or seek vengeance, but wait on the Lord.

But, you insisted that I was changing the definition of love. Now you change the definition of love as well. No we are not to love the enemy in the same way we love God. Nor would it be the same love that you would have for a friend or someone you hold close to your heart. Jesus wasn’t washing the Pharisees’ feet.To me it is just an all around general sort of love, whether you call it agape or whatever.

You also insist that the Pharisees plotting in secret to have Jesus killed proves they knew it was evil. I find that irrational. The narrative presents Jesus as highly popular with the common people, and the Pharisees as fearful of the pushback they will face if they publicly seek his death. So of course, they strategize behind the scenes, rather than in public. This does not falsify Jesus’ insight that “they know not what they do.”

All people are not ignorant. Some know what they’re doing, some may not.Whether or not these Pharisees and Sadducees knew that murder was wrong, or that they were to love others as themselves etc., Jesus educated them on the matter, so they no longer had an excuse. As Hebrews 10:26 says, “For if we willfully sin after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin.”

You can keep insisting that these Pharisees didn’t know what they were doing. But it doesn’t matter. If one doesn’t know the duties of a man of God or simply refuses to comply then he/she does not qualify for and should not be the head of the church, and this is why they were kicked out.

[maintenanceman]

What you may mean is that you feel that your gun is what keeps our gov’t in check, and you secure from tyranny. While I think the president is tempted to expand his powers, I don’t worry about it, nor have any inclination to shoot people over it.

Well, yes an armed citizenry does indeed help to keep a tyrannical government at bay… Your inclination to say that because we want a right to keep and bear arms that some how people are going to shoot others is a bit over the edge… I know many folks who have firearms and to my understanding, none, none, none, of them have ever used a firearm in a illegal way.