The Evangelical Universalist Forum

"You must do nothing to come to Jesus" vs "This is what you must do now"


#183

Yes, you’ve tried to make the case, and you are repeating your arguments. But you haven’t addressed the prime objection I’ve made. Listen to the words of Jesus:

“So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”

They said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?”

He said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so and I tell you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.” (Matthew 19:7-9)

If the word means only “sends away” or “puts away” rather than “divorce” it doesn’t make sense that if one marries another it is adultery under the OT laws. For at that time a man could have as many wives as he chose. He couldn’t commit adultery by marrying another one. But Jesus said, “I tell you: whoever ‘puts away’ his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”


#184

I don’t recall any biblical examples of polygamy among Jews by the time of Jesus.

Some translators have assumed that in Israel back in those days, “sending away” was synonymous with “legally divorce.” But I am saying that would be like assuming nowadays that divorce and separation were the same thing.

A suggested amplification of Matt. 5:31-32 (NASB)—

“It was said, ‘WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY (apolyō), LET HIM ALSO GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE’ (apostasion); but I say to you that everyone who sends away his wife, except for the reason of unchastity (porneia), makes her to appear like an unchaste woman [and if she remarries, a genuine adulteress]; and whoever marries a sent away (but not legally divorced) woman commits adultery (moicháō), since she’s still legally married to someone else.

A man remaining separated from his wife without a certificate of divorce is wrong.

I think that the “exception clause" was obviously not limiting the grounds for divorce to adultery, as a written divorce was not necessary where adultery was confirmed— because those found guilty of adultery were to be stoned, so they would certainly not need a certificate of divorce to remarry legally–they would be dead soon. Rather, Jesus was discussing the matter of the issuing of the certificate of divorce.

Any woman who is sent away without a certificate of divorce is only separated and not lawfully divorced. Marriage to a woman who is only separated would represent adultery, since she is still not divorced from her original husband.

Notice there is also a guilt upon the one who merely sends away without a legal, written divorce: he ‘makes her to appear like an unchaste woman [and if she remarries, a genuine adulteress].’

We all know that from the beginning it was supposed to be one man, with one woman, for life—unless separated by death.

But again, Paidion, more explicitly, what are you saying, by extension, in 2019? That Jesus means that legally divorced and remarried people are now in a perpetual state of adultery?


#185

How do you know Moses even said these words… :face_with_raised_eyebrow:


#186

Legalities have no moral meaning. A divorce is not a mere legality. Separation from one’s spouse is the sin. A divorce is tantamount to separation.

Jesus said, “So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate.”

The Jews said to him, “Why then did Moses command one to give a certificate of divorce and to send her away?"

THEY were arguing from what Moses said, that it was okay to separate from your wife, if you made it legal.

Jesus said to them, “Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to separate from your wives, but from the beginning it was not so and I tell you: whoever separates from his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery.”*

So Jesus was pointing out the real issue—separation. In no way was He indicating that it was okay to separate and remarry if you made the separation legal with a “certificate of divorce.”


#187

We don’t. But, whoever wrote the words didn’t trust the Levites. Their ways weren’t the ways of Israel’s God; so they weren’t given any portion or inheritance among the children of Israel, not even the ministry, because it too is part of the inheritance.


#188

No… YOU don’t! You really are stuck :roll_eyes:


#189

I doubt LLC is alone in finding the Pentateuch’s historicity and composition subject to question.


#190

‘Question’ is fine… rewriting the story is a whole other game.


#191

Right, I read her as unsure if Moses’ stated words are actually his Ipsissima Verba.


#192

So… it’s time again to let the text speak for itself, to let whoever is interested to balance up whatever LLC claims as fact be true, OR whether the bible actually says something entirely different — this is where it all began, so let the texts speak…

Ex 28:1 “Now take Aaron your brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister to Me as priest, Aaron and Aaron’s sons: Nadab, Abihu, Eleazar, and Ithamar.

Lev 7:35 This is the consecrated portion for Aaron and his sons, from the offerings made by fire to the Lord, on the day when Moses presented them to minister to the Lord as priests.

Num 18:20 Then the Lord said to Aaron: “You shall have no inheritance in their land, nor shall you have any portion among them; I am your portion and your inheritance among the children of Israel.

Deut 10:8-9 At that time the Lord separated the tribe of Levi to bear the ark of the covenant of the Lord, to stand before the Lord to minister to Him and to bless in His name, to this day. Therefore Levi has no portion nor inheritance with his brethren; the Lord is his inheritance, just as the Lord your God promised him.

Deut 14:27 You shall not forsake the Levite who is within your gates, for he has no part nor inheritance with you.

Deut 18:1-2, 5 “The priests, the Levites—all the tribe of Levi—shall have no part nor inheritance with Israel; they shall eat the offerings of the Lord made by fire, and His portion. Therefore they shall have no inheritance among their brethren; the Lord is their inheritance, as He said to them. … For the Lord your God has chosen him out of all your tribes to stand to minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons forever.

As you can see from these texts… LLC’s theory is NOWHERE NEAR these texts… in fact the very opposite. FAR from LLC’s claim that… “the Levites were cast out” Israel was emphatically commanded NOT TO FORESAKE them! That LLC still chooses to ignore all this evidence is her business… but to claim as she has and does cannot be left unchallenged, as these texts rightfully refute!

The WHOLE reason the Levites were apportioned zip, zero and zilch on the temporal tribal level within Israel was BECAUSE they themselves ON BEHALF OF Israel were appointed as the Lord’s portion and received from all the other tribes His portion accordingly — one can be further educated on this right HERE.


#193

But you dodged Hermano’s question. Why will you not answer if in your opinion divorced people are living in adultery or not?


#194

I didn’t dodge it. I just didn’t think it necessary to say it, since the Son of God—the Lord Jesus Himself, , said it so clearly.


#195

You are a piece of work. People are reading this wondering your position to Hermano’s post and you post that? Hmm,


#196

This is rather strange. From what I understand ,God is the portion and inheritance of ALL who obey Him.
“I shall be your God and you shall be My people.”
You inherit the Spirit God and bear the fruit thereof.
" Do you not know that you body is a temple of the Holy Spirit?"
'You shall be a kingdom of priests and a holy nation."
Not only this, but those who obey God ARE the children of Israel and inherit these things as well:
Exodus 28 " Now it shall come to pass, if you diligently obey the voice of the Lord your God, to carefully observe all His commandments which I command you today, that the Lord your God will set you high above all nations of the earth. And all these blessings will come upon you , because you obey the voice of the Lord you God."
Blessed shall you be in the city and the country.
Blessed shall be the fruit of your body, the produce of your ground, the increase of your herds and livestock…Blessed shall you be in your storehouses and in all to which you set your hand. He will bless you in the land which He is giving you.
“The Lord will establish you as a holy people to Himself, just as He has sworn to you, if you keep the commandments of the Lord and walk in His ways.”
“And the Lord will make you the head and not the tail.”

All that is God’s is yours.

No. The children of Israel were not to forsake the Levites, just as the Lord commands: Love the stranger and give him food an clothing.(Deut. 10:18)


#197

Not so strange… it’s the biblical pattern whereby the whole are blessed by the few in that God apportioned an inheritance to Himself wherein His blessing was then distributed to the whole, e.g., out of all the world Israel was taken as His portion, His inheritance, and yet within that (in this instance) was the Levites… His priestly portion to minister ON BEHALF OF the greater whole… the Levites were a kind of firstfruits of Israel unto the Lord…

Num 8:14, 16, 18 Thus you shall separate the Levites from among the children of Israel, and the Levites shall be Mine. … For they are wholly given to Me from among the children of Israel; I have taken them for Myself instead of all who open the womb, the firstborn of all the children of Israel. … I have taken the Levites instead of all the firstborn of the children of Israel.


#198

There are no “people” who are wondering other than yourself, and I have no idea what you are wondering about!

I told you like it is. Jesus’ words are clear. What good would it do to repeat them and state that I agree with them? You can read them for yourself, can’t you?


#199

If caps means you are yelling at someone what does all bolds mean?:roll_eyes:


#200

Chad to Paidion!

See


#201

In my case—emphasis.


#202

Davo, Again, the Levites had no share in the blessings or inheritance that the God of Israel offers to those that obey Him. THEY were the ones being blessed by those who did.
Deut. 14:2-29 " You shall not forsake the Levite who is within your gates, for he has no part or inheritance with you. At the end of every third year you shall bring out the tithe of your produce of that year and store it up within your gates. And the Levite, because he has no portion or inheritance with you, and the stranger and the fatherless and the widow who are within your gates, may come and eat and be satisfied, that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do."

ALL of Israel were to be examples to the world and show others the way of the Lord.
Deut. 28:10 Then all peoples of the earth shall SEE that you are called by the name of the Lord."

The Levites weren’t producing anything.

The ministry of the Lord God of Israel is one of action not words full of hot air. It speaks for itself.