"You must do nothing to come to Jesus" vs "This is what you must do now"


Davo, As I mentioned before, kingdoms/societies/worlds can be formed or created by the things we believe and do, faith and works. For example, I have never been a slave. I live in a society where the many have joined together in unison(as one man/ one voice) in the belief that slavery is not the way of God. In order to preserve this “kingdom” we must continue to teach our children the same and keep the faith(belief) alive.
Another example, America is not ruled by the religious laws of any one particular faith. We have freedom of worship because the many who live here believe that one should not be persecuted for their religious beliefs.
However, it was not that way in Israel in Jesus’ time as it says in Galatians 4 about the two covenants- " For the desolate has many more children than she who has a husband." Those who followed the Lev. law persecuted those of the Spirit.
It doesn’t matter whether I’ve lived under the Lev. law or not. The faith in it still exists and is still practiced and preached. We can either accept or reject it.


I must find something, to get the LLC seal of approval. Perhaps this, maybe?

Well, for the benefit of everyone…we should get everyone up to speed on it…and the best way, is via the Got Questions website…as this ALWAYS, had LLC’s 100% - seal of approval - I think! :wink:


Sorry HF, The got questions does not get my seal of approval. I disagree with it. You’ll have to try again.:wink:

For one thing, they’ve already changed the words when they say that the righteous requirement of the Law is fulfilled FOR us. Romans 8:4 says "So that the righteous requirement of the Law may be fulfilled IN US WHO DO NOT LIVE ACCORDING TO THE FLESH BUT ACCORDING TO THE SPIRIT. Big difference.

Romans 8:14-15 says “For those who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God. The Spirit you received does not make you slaves so that you live in fear again, rather the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship.”

Moses led many out of slavery through the teaching of the Spirit(the Law of God). He did not give them the Lev. law. 1Cor. 10:4 “For they drank of that rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.”
As it says in Exodus 18:21 “Moreover you shall select men from all the people, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them to be rulers…”

However, many were not willing to accept this. They wanted their kings and queens, their “royal bloodlines” and their holy priesthoods. And as you see in the book of Samuel, the prophet warns them of what will happen in choosing a king.
1 Samuel 8:5-7 “Now make for us a king to judge us like all the other nations… And the Lord said to Samuel, ’ Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me.”


LLC… you really need to stop right where you are because it is simply hypocritical of you to keep quoting texts of scripture seeking to claim such in favour of your “odd beliefs” BECAUSE you have already previously unashamedly acknowledged your own lack of trust in any such words spoken.
Can you not see this?


Not ONLY that, but she needs to supply some context - to those verses. Imagine someone saying:

This is a step, in the right direction!

And this becomes a passage or verse.

Then no matter what that person writes about, I prefix it - with this verse:

This is a step, in the right direction!

Or I say:


And LLC sings:


I think non-inerrantists SHOULD admit that they don’t see all texts as on the same level or equally binding on their sense of what is true. So, given my own frustration with LLC disputing texts I presented, I appreciate the clarity she has provided in acknowledging her view of Scripture as containing a human aspect that is worthy of critique in light of her sense of its’ enduring and convincing themes.

My own bias’ is that everyone is selective about which texts they emphasize and upon which they build their theological systems. They just don’t admit it. Thus I’d affirm those who explain why they camp on certain texts as those which contain the most abiding truths, and then can argue why those beliefs commend themselves to them.

I’d even argue that a non-errantist may have an easier time objectively acknowledging what texts appear to say, since unlike conservatives, they are not invested in requiring that every verse supports their own theology or tradition. Telling a non-fundamentalist who recognize diverse views within the canon,that presenting their interpretation of texts is illicit unless they share my own Bibliology seems an unfair way to cut off challenges to my own exegesis.


HF, I have been, or at least I thought so.

Bob, Thank you.:slightly_smiling_face: And I definitely agree with your statements that everyone is selective. They just don’t admit it.

And I think those truths can be found where we don’t really look- right in front of our very eyes as Paul says, they are clearly seen and understood by the thing that are made; and as Moses says, in our mouths and in our hearts.

Davo, From what I understand, God does not give us words that fail. He only gives us words, that if followed, will bring us life. If the Lev. law failed to bring life then my only conclusion is that some of the words of this law are not from God.


Well, for everyone’s benefit…let me supply an answer, from your FAVORITE site! :wink:

Let me quote a bit - for everyone’s benefit!

:* It’s important to study Bible passages and stories within their context. Taking verses out of context leads to all kinds of error and misunderstanding. Understanding context begins with four principles: literal meaning (what it says), historical setting (the events of the story, to whom is it addressed, and how it was understood at that time), grammar (the immediate sentence and paragraph within which a word or phrase is found) and synthesis (comparing it with other parts of Scripture for a fuller meaning). Context is crucial to biblical exegesis in that it is one of its most important fundamentals. After we account for the literal, historical, and grammatical nature of a passage, we must then focus on the outline and structure of the book, then the chapter, then the paragraph. All of these things refer to “context.” To illustrate, it is like looking at Google Maps and zooming in on one house.

This short - but educational video - will help understand “proper” context: :wink:


Great… but when I ask you for textual evidence to back up your claim that the Levites practised paganism worshipping false gods and you just go silent; so I am left to conclude… your assertions themselves remain fully false, all bias’ aside.

And further… you glibly dismiss a counter-argument of mine with a mere How do we know if Jesus even said these words? and yet don’t like it when your own rationales are then held up and measured against your own standard… far from convincing IMO; again all bias’ aside.




As John I :11 says, “He came to His own and His own did not receive Him” because they weren’t worshipping the God of Israel. The Levitical priests were teaching of another god. Their ways were NOT His ways.
Isaiah 1:11-14 “To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me? I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed cattle. I do not delight in the blood of bulls or lambs or goats.13 Bring no more futile sacrifices; incense is an abomination to Me. Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; they are a trouble to Me , I am weary of bearing them.”
17-18 “Learn to do good; seek justice. reprove the oppressor, defend the fatherless, plead for the widow though your sins are like scarlet they shall be as white as snow.”

Yes, they were worshipping false gods.


And on what basis are you confident those words of John and Isaiah are true… based on your previous criteria?


HF, Many of the books of the Bible were written by different authors from different time periods. There are verses out of order, the same stories are told multiple times and some of these writings are from people of other faiths.


Decide for yourself.


Anyway, some questions for you:

  • And what would you say, to someone of the Islamic faith…who says that the Koran, is totally true…because it was dictated to Mohammad - in its entirety - via God - through the angel Gabriel?

  • How do you know, what stories are true and what stories are not - in the Bible?

  • LLC. Can you give an example or two…of Bible books not written, by people of either the Jewish or Christian faith? I would like to know more…about Bible books written, by people of other faiths. And I like some URL links, so I can study this a bit.

If you look at my profile, you can see the mantra I live by:

Always keep an open mind and a good crap-detector!

As an aside, I have no issue trying to understand…what I call, “non-traditional, minority viewpoints”. But they have more credence to me…when folks point to credible academics and /or scholars, who entertain the same ideas.



You asked this from LLC but isn’t this the pantelist theory? So if the Levites / Israel continued in the OT mode, in other words them seeing righteousness as continuance to the law, it was the same as them looking to an idol as opposed to the Christ?


No, absolutely NOT Chad… IF that were the case LLC wouldn’t object to said position so much; logic should tell you that :wink:

Earlier in this thread I challenged what I considered LLC’s aberrant claim… that Moses kicked out and cut off the Levites from Israel because they practised paganism in worshipping false gods. IN FACT the very opposite was true, i.e., the Levites were sanctified into the priesthood BY God BECAUSE they followed Him when all else started worshipping false gods — LLC’s claims are TOTALLY arse-about — you only have to go back and READ the texts I’ve supplied to see this and not swallow LLC’s dubious spin!

LLC’s latest is to claim parts of the bible were written by authors beyond the Judeo-Christian faiths — who knows where LLC gets this stuff from? — I think the likes of Bob’s succinct summary below pretty much has it right…


I think I figured out, where LLC gets this stuff. She found the entrance, to the Twilight Zone! :smile:

I’m still waiting for her, to answer my last set of questions! :wink:

Anyway, some questions for LLC:

  • And what would you say, to someone of the Islamic faith…who says that the Koran, is totally true…because it was dictated to Mohammad - in its entirety - via God - through the angel Gabriel?

  • How do you know, what stories are true and what stories are not - in the Bible?

  • LLC. Can you give an example or two…of Bible books not written, by people of either the Jewish or Christian faith? I would like to know more…about Bible books written, by people of other faiths. And I like some URL links, so I can study this a bit.

However, I’ll present a different take. Stuff that was communicated to Israel, God communicated to other cultures and places…Like the Native Americans, on the Red Road:

Legends and stories from many different First Nations tribes bear witness to the fact that God was at work in North America long before the arrival of the Europeans! There are many cited examples of how Creator was speaking to the original inhabitants of North America, including “great flood” stories, similarity in names for Creator and Creation Stories.

  • Example 1: The word “Cherokee” derives from a Choctaw word, “Chalaque”, meaning “cave people, or cave dwellers.” The Cherokee people, however, did not refer to themselves this way. They knew themselves as “Ani-Kituhwa”, the people of Kituhwa (Keetoowah), based on the first Cherokee village which bares the same name. One of their words for Creator was “Yowah”, so Keetowah means “sheltered by Creator”. And as Randy Woodley (www.eagleswingsministry.com) points out in his book, “Mixed Blood, Not Mixed Up” if we are all descended from one root before the tower of Babel, this information should not come as a shock to us.

  • Example 2: The Choctaw recall the story of Oka Falamah (the returning waters) in which the Great Spirit became greatly displeased with the wickedness and corruption of mankind. The Great Spirit then sent a prophet from tribe to tribe and village to village to warn the people they were soon to be destroyed. No one believed him and they continued on in their wicked ways. Soon thereafter, a great wave came and swept over the earth destroying everyone and leaving the earth a desolate place. Only one man was saved: the prophet who had tried to warn the people. He had made a raft of sassafras logs, as directed by the Great Spirit. After many weeks of floating he was visited by a bluish bird which he followed to an island which was “covered with all varieties of animals – except the mammoth which had been destroyed.” The bluish bird was beautiful and kind, so he named it Puchi Yushubah (Lost Pigeon or turtle dove). This bird eventually became a woman whom he married and began to populate the world (“Social & Ceremonial Life of the Choctaw Indians” by John Swanton).

  • Example 3: Circling Raven, a medicine man of the Sin-ho-man-naish (Middle Spokane), was angry at Creator because of the great many deaths that were occurring among his people (smallpox epidemic in 1782). He went up on the top of Mount Spokane for four days of prayer and fasting to the creator, Quilent-sat-men (which means “He Made Us”). “At the conclusion of his fast Circling Raven received a vision of men of white skin wearing strange clothes and bearing in their hands leaves bound together. He was told to counsel his people to prepare for these chipixa, “white-skinned ones,” and to pay attention to the teaching that came from the leaves bound together” (“One Church, Many Tribes” by Richard Twiss).

Now I have to go and find LLC! :wink:

When truth is not the truth, what dimension are you even in?

And I even sent my dog in, to the Twilight Zone - to find LLC. Now the dog is also lost!


I am going to tread into foreign waters. I thinks (yes with ‘a’ s) that you and LLC are at loggerheads. As to the further of the issue, lets get to the difference from your point of view verses LLC’s…

But davo you continue to maybe in others view, espouse the same things.


Well I know you’ve held that, as per your last post to me, but I’ve set you straight on that, i.e., I DON’T in any way shape or form agree with LLC’s position on the Levites. And certainly no one else here thus far has raised any objection to what I’ve stated about the Levites on this issue.